Octopus Overlords

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 4:30 pm It's just a shot away , indeed.

You can't see that without thinking about the Rolling Stones at Altamont, can you.

JFC. I didn't think my opinion of the cowards in Uvalde could get any lower.

I'm vibrating with anger and sadness. Police reform is important and the violent toxic police culture needs to be address finally. The police are always skirting the rules to hide their actions. Body cams were supposed to be a remedy to that and they can be except guess who controls those videos. The police. I think we need to take that control out of their hands. All body cam footage needs should be required to be transferred a separate independent agency who can review the footage and if necessary release footage to expose police corruption and criminality. I think the days of blank checks of trust to law enforcement needs to end. They are killing and harming too many of our citizens (our children). I had to post this somewhere.

Scoop20906 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:53 pm I'm vibrating with anger and sadness. Police reform is important and the violent toxic police culture needs to be address finally. The police are always skirting the rules to hide their actions. Body cams were supposed to be a remedy to that and they can be except guess who controls those videos. The police. I think we need to take that control out of their hands. All body cam footage needs should be required to be transferred a separate independent agency who can review the footage and if necessary release footage to expose police corruption and criminality.

That would be a tremendously valuable step. So much better than the mindless "defund" approach.

The problem is that we need law enforcement if we want rule of law. Law enforcement, by its very nature, requires granting certain privileges to individuals. Humans, by their very nature, are wont to abuse privilege. We aren't much different, fundamentally, than 50 or 100 or 400 years ago. That's not to say there is no way to have meaningful police reform. It's just an enormous task with no quick fix.


CPD is operating under a consent decree. One of the results is a new elected police district council. Each district gets 3 elected civilian representatives. The first election for the council is Feb 28. In our district there are 6 candidates and it's actually becoming a pretty big race. I've been to a few candidate forums and am working with one of the candidates. We've met with our aldermen one on one, and are still trying to figure out what exactly the job will entail. This first council will probably have a lot of control over how it works and how much power they will actually have in holding CPD accountable. It's a very small step but it is in the right direction, I think.

I've met with advocacy groups, CPD (including our district commander), and our alderman. Even met with 2 mayoral candidates to get their take on this. The mayor's office contacted us and then blew us off so I'm done with her on this topic. Some I think we may get somewhere. Other days I think there is no hope.


Should also note that Chicago also has the Civilian Office of Police Accountability (COPA). They take and investigate complaints and I think show up at every scene of a police shooting (possibly every use of force?). Again, not perfect but it's a step.

We're likely at a point where incremental reform isn't going to work. Independent and civilian review boards generally haven't worked where instituted. The politicians who work hand and glove with the police eventually tend to slip pro-police people into them. We can't rely on legislative response as the police have successfully resisted every movement to reform them in the last 100 years. People have also tried turning toward the courts to get police powers limited. The outcomes suggest we're not going to get help from the courts. Except for some cases during the Warren court the Supreme Court has expanded their powers in response. We would need a popular reform movement unlike anything we've ever seen here. Sorry to be a bummer but this is just another problem in America that we probably can't fix.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:20 pm The problem is that we need law enforcement if we want rule of law. Law enforcement, by its very nature, requires granting certain privileges to individuals. Humans, by their very nature, are wont to abuse privilege. We aren't much different, fundamentally, than 50 or 100 or 400 years ago. That's not to say there is no way to have meaningful police reform. It's just an enormous task with no quick fix.

All true but I would argue police reform is effectively impossible in the United States. Look at the abuses we've seen and then look at the outcome 5-10 years later. We'll see "improvements" which are effectively reshuffling of the deck. The problems move somewhere else, the abuses have been defined away, and the violence embedded into normal police conduct. Where they go way out of line - like this - sometimes it doesn't even spur action but this is about the line where the system will reliably react to keep police conduct within the "acceptable police force envelope".

In the end I keep coming back to basics on this. Like you said it's an enormous task but outside of small pockets we don't even try. If we truly cared about this problem, we'd measure it. We don't collect data on the abuse of police power in the United States. What we know comes from news organizations, NGOs, etc. If we wanted to truly begin a road towards reform, we'd actually start collecting evidence. We don't and won't which says everything we need to know.

I am not joking when I suggest we need NATO Peacekeepers to accompany some police units. Body cam footage is an after-the-fact trying to figure out what happened situation. We need 3rd party observers to be able to step in while bad things are happening because it's pretty clear they're incapable of being trusted in real time.

Maybe not NATO but maybe ask other Western democracies whose police don’t regularly beat the shit out of and shoot their citizens for some advice.

We should probably consider examining our culture of every first responder/soldier gets put on a pedestal and instant hero status. While originally well intentioned, I suspect the idea has turned toxic and is having unintended consequences.

Probably also the fact that there are SO many fucking guns here, the police have to be extra paranoid and are probably extra scared. Having to assume everyone’s packing already changes the approach compared to non-US.

I’d argue this issue is a lot of cop units are made of up of young men who saw action in Iraq and Afghanistan during the occupation and have been gifted the cast off vehicles from those conflicts to use for everyday policing.

Therefore they are angry, suffering PTSD and have been trained from experience to distrust the public. And in infantry fighting vehicles of the ilk used by cops in Soweto in the 1970s and 1980s.

waitingtoconnect wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:44 am I’d argue this issue is a lot of cop units are made of up of young men who saw action in Iraq and Afghanistan during the occupation and have been gifted the cast off vehicles from those conflicts to use for everyday policing.

Therefore they are angry, suffering PTSD and have been trained from experience to distrust the public. And in infantry fighting vehicles of the ilk used by cops in Soweto in the 1970s and 1980s.

A STUDY OF POLICE OFFICERS WITH MILITARY SERVICE BACKGROUNDS COMPARED TO POLICE OFFICERS WITHOUT MILITARY SERVICE

John F. Hussey
The Graduate Center, City University of New York (PDF)

Based on the quantitative data that was examined and the conclusions drawn from running both a Chi Square a determination was made that police officers with military experience are less likely to receive civilian complaints filed against them for use of force and for unprofessional behavior than police officers who do not have military experience.

There were a variety of research questions posed to the two cohorts of police supervisors. In summary a review of the qualitative data would lead one to conclude that the overwhelming majority police supervisors in both cohorts noted that police officers with military experience outperformed police officers who did not have military experience. Lastly, ninety five percent of the members surveyed from American Legion Post #0460 agreed that serving in the United States Military has been beneficial to their careers as police officers.

Reading that summary it says police officers outperformed officers with a civilian background but also had less respect for the public they are protecting. I’m curious how they measure “outperformed”. What is the metric? Overall peace and safety in a community or how many people did arrest and throw in jail which does not always lead to a safer community.

The problem is that as the morale and public image declines, the bar gets lowered. It's a vicious cycle. And it's not just the rank and file. Leadership is increasingly politicized and compromised.

Morale is in the absolute shitter and as good (or even average) cops leave, a lower quality is taking their place.


Kind of related (?), here's a recent radio sign off in Miami:

It is routine for an officer, when they retire, to announce it over the radio.

But for 33-year veteran Sgt. Marilin Garcia, goodbye was anything but routine.

“This place was an amazing department to work for until the back stabbing and personal attacks started from my immediate supervisors and the First,” Garcia said over the police radio. “And if you don’t know who the First is, the First of nothing. To the chief and the First of nothing, you guys are in denial. You think you’re doing an amazing job, but in reality, you have destroyed this police department and the morale, except for your circle, which is definitely took care of.”

Garcia then refers to the prior police chief, Art Acevedo.

“I thought that Acevedo was bad, but at least one things for sure, I knew where he was coming from. To the First, you have a nasty attitude. So do yourself a favor and take some interpersonal skill classes so you know how to treat people right. And finally, to my immediate supervisor, Maj. Garrido. You are a liar, a snake in the grass, a cancer to this department. The hardest thing of being a female in this department was being surrounded by many males knowing that I was more of a man than you.”

She concluded with this message for her now-former fellow officers.

“Please take care of yourself. Back each other up because they don’t care about you, your family,” Garcia said.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:16 am The problem is that as the morale and public image declines, the bar gets lowered. It's a vicious cycle. And it's not just the rank and file. Leadership is increasingly politicized and compromised.

Morale is in the absolute shitter and as good (or even average) cops leave, a lower quality is taking their place.

I get this is important but also it is often the fault of the police themselves. They've built a poison culture which is perhaps the root cause of the vicious cycle. It's not like we can't look at how every other country polices to know that we have a major problem.

Kind of related (?), here's a recent radio sign off in Miami:

It is routine for an officer, when they retire, to announce it over the radio.

But for 33-year veteran Sgt. Marilin Garcia, goodbye was anything but routine.

“This place was an amazing department to work for until the back stabbing and personal attacks started from my immediate supervisors and the First,” Garcia said over the police radio. “And if you don’t know who the First is, the First of nothing. To the chief and the First of nothing, you guys are in denial. You think you’re doing an amazing job, but in reality, you have destroyed this police department and the morale, except for your circle, which is definitely took care of.”

Garcia then refers to the prior police chief, Art Acevedo.

“I thought that Acevedo was bad, but at least one things for sure, I knew where he was coming from. To the First, you have a nasty attitude. So do yourself a favor and take some interpersonal skill classes so you know how to treat people right. And finally, to my immediate supervisor, Maj. Garrido. You are a liar, a snake in the grass, a cancer to this department. The hardest thing of being a female in this department was being surrounded by many males knowing that I was more of a man than you.”

She concluded with this message for her now-former fellow officers.

“Please take care of yourself. Back each other up because they don’t care about you, your family,” Garcia said.

This statement is a symptom of problem. Part of it is a total lack of professionalism. But more so, any officer who participates in this culture for long and then sheds crocodile tears after they have reaped extraordinary benefits and about to retire on the public's dime? Pure chutzpah.

malchior wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:52 am

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:16 am The problem is that as the morale and public image declines, the bar gets lowered. It's a vicious cycle. And it's not just the rank and file. Leadership is increasingly politicized and compromised.

Morale is in the absolute shitter and as good (or even average) cops leave, a lower quality is taking their place.

I get this is important but also it is often the fault of the police themselves. They've built a poison culture which is perhaps the root cause of the vicious cycle. It's not like we can't look at how every other country polices to know that we have a major problem.

Well, of course it's often of their own making. But we have to live with the results. It's worth noting.

We can't really look to other countries. We hold 30% of the worlds wealth with a ratio of 1+:1 guns per person, across the 3rd largest land mass that accounts for 40% of all military spending in the world. It's a unique combination. To say nothing of our cultural "idiosyncrasies".







I'm not sure how we can emulate what are held up as examples of better police forces. Our police forces aren't some detached organization foisted upon us, they're a reflection of our values and society. We value wealth over life, protection of property over protection of health, etc.

malchior wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:52 am This statement is a symptom of problem. Part of it is a total lack of professionalism. But more so, any officer who participates in this culture for long and then sheds crocodile tears after they have reaped extraordinary benefits and about to retire on the public's dime? Pure chutzpah.

Of course it's a symptom of the problem. It gives us insight into the rot and division in that department, and probably many more. I'm not sure how it would be better for every non-bad cop to just quit rather than try to stay in the job. How many people stay in jobs they don't like, working for bad bosses, because they need to earn a living?


Side note, someone retiring on a public pension does so as a term of their employment and they aren't indebted to those they served after retirement just because they're colleting that check. It's part of the compensation they were promised during their career. Or so I'm constantly told when I criticize our unfathomable public pension debt.

Not sure how country wealth and military spending correlates to ‘our local civilian police forces seem to have serious cultural problems’.

?

I also very much disagree with the argument that we are special snowflakes in the world therefore we can’t look outward for models that work better.

That includes our gun problem as well. And our racial problem, etc etc.

I think that unwillingness to consider other successful models is partly rooted in an inherent idea that we are or have to be the best, THE model, and because perhaps historically many countries have looked to us to lead. The mere notion that maybe other countries are doing things better than us smacks of being unpatriotic. And to consider THEIR model as a solution to a problem we can’t seem to solve? Pearls. Clutching.

Not saying that’s your stance, LB, but I hear that argument a lot for different ‘faults’, and it’s just a theory I have about its origin.

Edit: just read your last paragraph below the graphs…I think that’s spot on about reflecting our values. Probably a big part of the problem (like with our politics) is US. Our values. Hypercapitalism. Wealth, and maybe more important, growth of that wealth, above all else.

Our societal and cultural commitment to that idea, and to those values above all others has all kinds of nasty ramifications that we are seeing now.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:38 pm Of course it's a symptom of the problem. It gives us insight into the rot and division in that department, and probably many more. I'm not sure how it would be better for every non-bad cop to just quit rather than try to stay in the job. How many people stay in jobs they don't like, working for bad bosses, because they need to earn a living?


Side note, someone retiring on a public pension does so as a term of their employment and they aren't indebted to those they served after retirement just because they're colleting that check. It's part of the compensation they were promised during their career. Or so I'm constantly told when I criticize our unfathomable public pension debt.

Not only all of this but I think removing of pensions outside of the public sector was really set in to motion beginning with Reagan era and then solidified during the Bush the Elder (AKA the Karl Rove era) where the new and improved GOP pushed for 401ks and IRAs over pensions because people know how to manage their own money and this would allow them to share the wealth. I wonder what happened to wealth concentration and health care costs starting around the 80s.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:38 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:52 am This statement is a symptom of problem. Part of it is a total lack of professionalism. But more so, any officer who participates in this culture for long and then sheds crocodile tears after they have reaped extraordinary benefits and about to retire on the public's dime? Pure chutzpah.

Of course it's a symptom of the problem. It gives us insight into the rot and division in that department, and probably many more.

Does it? General, unspecific grousing on the way out the door doesn't tell us much about the problem.

I'm not sure how it would be better for every non-bad cop to just quit rather than try to stay in the job. How many people stay in jobs they don't like, working for bad bosses, because they need to earn a living?

I don't agree. Staying in your job because you don't like your boss is one thing. Ignoring and joining in the poison culture of sexism, abuse, and corruption to earn a living and then complain about the people instead of the problems on the way out? Chutzpah is being kind.

Side note, someone retiring on a public pension does so as a term of their employment and they aren't indebted to those they served after retirement just because they're colleting that check. It's part of the compensation they were promised during their career. Or so I'm constantly told when I criticize our unfathomable public pension debt.

Eh. It is the compensation model they've built themselves via their incredible influence over the political system. I don't think it is fair to compare them to other public pensions. Most public workers get paid a fraction of what they do both in salary, benefits, and pensions over their lifetimes. The police often have their own pensions with different rules which are incredibly favorable to them. On top, they've extracted extraordinary benefits compared to the people they work for, so I think it's more than fair to remark that their whining is sort of gross and unearned.

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:44 pm Not sure how country wealth and military spending correlates to ‘our local civilian police forces seems to have serious cultural problems’.

?

I also very much disagree with the argument that we are special snowflakes in the world therefore we can’t look outward for models that work better.

That includes our gun problem as well. And our racial problem, etc etc.

I think that unwillingness to consider other successful models is partly rooted in an inherent idea that we are or have to be the best, THE model, and because perhaps historically many countries have looked to us to lead. The mere notion that maybe other countries are doing things better than us smacks of being unpatriotic. And to consider THEIR model as a solution to a problem we can’t seem to solve? Pearls. Clutching.

Not saying that’s your stance, LB, but I hear that argument a lot for different ‘faults’, and it’s just a theory I have about its origin.

Edit: just read your last paragraph below the graphs…I think that’s spot on about reflecting our values. Probably a big part of the problem (like with our politics) is US. Our values. Hypercapitalism. Wealth, and maybe more important, growth of that wealth, above all else.

Our societal and cultural commitment to that idea, and to those values above all others has all kinds of nasty ramifications that we are seeing now.

We aren't special or "the best". We are just uniquely fucked up. It's not about is being too good to take someone else's lead. At least not for me. I can name a half a dozen countries that I've experienced first hand that I think do most things better, including policing. But their systems would not work here.
Much of they is due to our combination of high wealth (and high wealth disparity), a shitload of guns, huge land area.

Our massive military spending demonstrates our priority of national defense over national policing We relegate policing to regional and municipal agencies while we spend a third of our national budget on the military .There is no national standard or governance. This allows bad cops to hop from agency to agency, working the job indefinitely. It also means that the military is our de facto training for our police forces since we don't have a national police training academy.

Just wanna say that from where I'm from "Chutzpah" is generally used as a complimentary term. One that is willing to take bold risks... So I was a little confused by your use of it here since you are also saying that she was lame for being a part of it all and only complain about it on her way out.

Unagi wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:59 pm Just wanna say that from where I'm from "Chutzpah" is generally used as a complimentary term. One that is willing to take bold risks... So I was a little confused by your use of it here since you are also saying that she was lame for being a part of it all and only complain about it on her way out.

Where I'm from Chutzpah is context driven.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:25 pmWell, of course it's often of their own making. But we have to live with the results. It's worth noting.

Totally aligned here. I'm just saying that acceptance it is the inevitable is the classic response to authority gone amok. Which it certainly has.

We can't really look to other countries. We hold 30% of the worlds wealth with a ratio of 1+:1 guns per person, across the 3rd largest land mass that accounts for 40% of all military spending in the world. It's a unique combination. To say nothing of our cultural "idiosyncrasies".

I'm more aligned with Carpet_Pissr on this one. Our reliance on some notion of exceptionalism is excuse making.

I'm not sure how we can emulate what are held up as examples of better police forces. Our police forces aren't some detached organization foisted upon us, they're a reflection of our values and society. We value wealth over life, protection of property over protection of health, etc.

In general I'm aligned on the reflection part when it comes to the tone about police necessity and funding. The disconnect is the implementation which is senselessly violent and abusive. There is little reason for qualified immunity to exist as public policy for instance. I also don't think there is a strong connection between protecting property and beating up and oppressing black people. That is the reflection that America at its heart still has white supremacy baked into its bones. And every day that continues is a day we should continue to oppose the police in its current form.

malchior wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:02 pm

Unagi wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:59 pm Just wanna say that from where I'm from "Chutzpah" is generally used as a complimentary term. One that is willing to take bold risks... So I was a little confused by your use of it here since you are also saying that she was lame for being a part of it all and only complain about it on her way out.

Where I'm from Chutzpah is context driven.

Yeah, I suppose it's true here too... It's synonymous with 'that took some real balls'... It can be connected to an action that one finds negative: "That took some real balls to hold up the bank while there were 4 armed guards standing behind him." - but even then - it's the small 'praise' you put to an otherwise stupid act.

/shrug

malchior wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:53 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:38 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:52 am This statement is a symptom of problem. Part of it is a total lack of professionalism. But more so, any officer who participates in this culture for long and then sheds crocodile tears after they have reaped extraordinary benefits and about to retire on the public's dime? Pure chutzpah.

Of course it's a symptom of the problem. It gives us insight into the rot and division in that department, and probably many more.

Does it? General, unspecific grousing on the way out the door doesn't tell us much about the problem.

Sure it does. Most HR depts would consider that to be a hell of an exit interview.

malchior wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:53 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:38 pm

I'm not sure how it would be better for every non-bad cop to just quit rather than try to stay in the job. How many people stay in jobs they don't like, working for bad bosses, because they need to earn a living?

I don't agree. Staying in your job because you don't like your boss is one thing. Ignoring and joining in the poison culture of sexism, abuse, and corruption to earn a living and then complain about the people instead of the problems on the way out? Chutzpah is being kind.

I have difficulty blaming a victim of sexism of supporting sexism by not quitting. Sure quitting is one option and I'm fine with it, but that doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't quit is complicit in the abuse.

malchior wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:53 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:38 pm Side note, someone retiring on a public pension does so as a term of their employment and they aren't indebted to those they served after retirement just because they're colleting that check. It's part of the compensation they were promised during their career. Or so I'm constantly told when I criticize our unfathomable public pension debt.

Eh. It is the compensation model they've built themselves via their incredible influence over the political system. I don't think it is fair to compare them to other public pensions. Most public workers get paid a fraction of what they do both in salary, benefits, and pensions over their lifetimes. The police often have their own pensions with different rules which are incredibly favorable to them. On top, they've extracted extraordinary benefits compared to the people they work for, so I think it's more than fair to remark that their whining is sort of gross and unearned.

It's political horse trading. Yes, I probably have a skewed view because our public pensions are crazy. But even limiting it only to police pensions, it's not a one-way street. Politicians trade the future for votes all the time. In this case it leads to fat police pensions. Can't blame the unions for doing their job. Do we demand post-employment loyalty from auto workers for their proportionately high pensions? Teachers?

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:29 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:53 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:38 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 11:52 am This statement is a symptom of problem. Part of it is a total lack of professionalism. But more so, any officer who participates in this culture for long and then sheds crocodile tears after they have reaped extraordinary benefits and about to retire on the public's dime? Pure chutzpah.

Of course it's a symptom of the problem. It gives us insight into the rot and division in that department, and probably many more.

Does it? General, unspecific grousing on the way out the door doesn't tell us much about the problem.

Sure it does. Most HR depts would consider that to be a hell of an exit interview.

Really? You're seeing way more signal there than me at least.

I have difficulty blaming a victim of sexism of supporting sexism by not quitting.

I agree and it isn't even close to a fair read into what I was saying.

Sure quitting is one option and I'm fine with it, but that doesn't mean that everyone who doesn't quit is complicit in the abuse.

Sure there might be exceptions but they'll be exceptions. Police culture in the United States is trained into them from academy onward. I've remarked in the past about a good friend who is in a regional police force. One that is generally pretty professional. Still the things he'll say are off the wall. I don't blame him for living with it because it's his livelihood but it's fucked up. I sometimes feel bad that he has to make fucked up choices but then again he pursued it knowing that culture (his family are all cops and firefighters). But then it's also relatively mild compared to say the NYPD which has an abysmal culture. In the end though I don't think it's unfair to generalize/assume that most police are covering up for abuses sometime in their career. Even the accidental ones.

It's political horse trading. Yes, I probably have a skewed view because our public pensions are crazy. But even limiting it only to police pensions, it's not a one-way street. Politicians trade the future for votes all the time. In this case it leads to fat police pensions. Can't blame the unions for doing their job. Do we demand post-employment loyalty from auto workers for their proportionately high pensions? Teachers?

I don't get this. It's not about loyalty or the relative merits of public unions. I'm saying that the complaining is part of the entitlement that is part of the cancer at the center of this disaster of a culture. Most people would be grateful that they're working a decade or more less than people in other unions and retiring with fabulous benefits. To the police? It's not enough. And that further drives a wedge between them and the population.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:25 pm

https://www.usaspending.gov/agency/depa ... se?fy=2023



$200B for DoD Retirement fund
$120B for Military retirement fund
$30B DoD Retiree healthcare fund
$15B Defense Health Program
$10B Payment to DoD Retiree healthcare fund

So $375B of the $1.01T go toward healthcare and retirement. It's funny what a 45-year cold war and another couple decades of global police does to foster lifetime careers.

malchior wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:15 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:25 pmWell, of course it's often of their own making. But we have to live with the results. It's worth noting.

Totally aligned here. I'm just saying that acceptance it is the inevitable is the classic response to authority gone amok. Which it certainly has.

We can't really look to other countries. We hold 30% of the worlds wealth with a ratio of 1+:1 guns per person, across the 3rd largest land mass that accounts for 40% of all military spending in the world. It's a unique combination. To say nothing of our cultural "idiosyncrasies".

I'm more aligned with Carpet_Pissr on this one. Our reliance on some notion of exceptionalism is excuse making.

I'm not sure how we can emulate what are held up as examples of better police forces. Our police forces aren't some detached organization foisted upon us, they're a reflection of our values and society. We value wealth over life, protection of property over protection of health, etc.

In general I'm aligned on the reflection part when it comes to the tone about police necessity and funding. The disconnect is the implementation which is senselessly violent and abusive. There is little reason for qualified immunity to exist as public policy for instance. I also don't think there is a strong connection between protecting property and beating up and oppressing black people. That is the reflection that America at its heart still has white supremacy baked into its bones. And every day that continues is a day we should continue to oppose the police in its current form.

I think part of the issue is that the constitution has morphed in people’s minds from a set of laws that can be adapted as time goes on by sensible intelligent leadership and the consent of the people to a holy text that is untouchable.

Well said.

I don't have words to express how disgusted I am by this video. The police are absolutely abysmal here.

This woman went to the emergency departments at two hospitals which both allegedly treated her and then quickly discharged her out because she did not have insurance. She claimed she had a stroke. The officers were called to remove her from the hospital. They treated her like garbage. Those cops are complaining and griping the entire time. This was how she was treated at the end of her life. They dehumanized her and then they did nothing to help her while she was literally dying. There is just something very wrong with this country.

Holy crap.

There wasn't a person involved that should keep their job. And I would hope that someone looks closely at cause of death and at the hospital's response.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 3:28 am Holy crap.

There wasn't a person involved that should keep their job. And I would hope that someone looks closely at cause of death and at the hospital's response.

I did some research. The officers are on administrative leave but the DA did quick work to clear them criminally. I guess if you ignore someone pleading they've had a stroke and they die of a stroke that's just God's hand at work, amirite?

13 ABC

An investigation by the DA’s office found that Edwards died of a stroke, clearing the officers of any criminal charges.

That DA investigation also found that Edward had been having multiple health issues leading up to her interaction with the police, including a previous stroke.

And people are agitating here in Canada about needing private healthcare.

Jesus H. Christ.

I couldn't watch the whole thing. Where is that? I can never go there. Go through there. That's sickening. That both the hospital system and the police could act in concert that way. Not the way I wanted to start my morning.

That is just the saddest.

I'll go out on a limb and guess that the community where that took place will not be bothered by the video and that their attitude is more or less like the cop's attitude.

I put the blame more on the hospitals than the police. They released a woman who had a stroke and was hours away from death, which is pure negligence.

The officers, as reprehensible as their attitude was, are not medical professionals. They're following the marching orders of the person who called them.

Yeah yeah I know we can argue that officers do have medical training and should have been able to recognize the basic signs of stroke, woulda coulda shoulda, I don't think we have enough info to make that call.

Right. I wouldn't blame them for her death. Perhaps they are slightly responsible for ignoring her medical complaints. Still I blame them for acting like callous thugs taking out the trash.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:11 am I put the blame more on the hospitals than the police. They released a woman who had a stroke and was hours away from death, which is pure negligence.

The officers, as reprehensible as their attitude was, are not medical professionals. They're following the marching orders of the person who called them.

Yeah yeah I know we can argue that officers do have medical training and should have been able to recognize the basic signs of stroke, woulda coulda shoulda, I don't think we have enough info to make that call.

100%. The majority is on the hospital. That is unconscionable.

If they're telling the cops, "Get her out of here, she's fine" not sure what else they can do. How they go about their jobs does matter but ultimately it's on the ED tossing this woman out basically untreated and/or misdiagnosed. And yes, I get that she may be a frequent flyer but still no excuse for that treatment.

The cops were following the medical advice of professionals. That shifts most of the blame, and is why I said to look closely at the cause of death (it's also possible that her death was caused by something that happened after she saw the doctors.)

And yet she was in obvious, visual pain when walking on her ankle. I think a few follow-up questions to the doctor ("Did you look at her ankle? Is it safe for her to walk?") would have been prudent prior to taking away her wheelchair and making her walk on it. And if the doctor hadn't checked the ankle, it should have raised larger questions. And none of that touches on their attitude, lack of respect, and how the treated her. That was less about the hospital's security or her actions and more about their egos. Criminally responsible? No. Professionally bankrupt? Yeah.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:20 pm Criminally responsible? No. Professionally bankrupt? Yeah.

Extreme civil liability. Also significant fines (EMTALA) and possibly loss of Medicare participation (which is basically a death sentence for a hospital).

My parents lived near Knoxville and were always warned away from this system. They went to UT.