Octopus Overlords

PG - 60K is very low and may apply to persons who are lone-wolfing it and have the IT manager title. At a bare minimum, I'd take the bottom of that range and add AT LEAST $1000 for every person you manage. So if its 20 staff, then 80K+. If the area is expensive, or the industry is highly regulated (HIPPA, SOX, etc) and has a lot of IT security/compliance demands, then I'd start at 80K and add at least 1000 for every managed person.

So If you're in healthcare or banking or national security and managed 30 - I'd assume you'd get AT LEAST $110K (more depending on cost of living in the area). I'd also bump it if it requires certifications like CISSP or PMP. I'd also bump it in an environment like a law firm.

Note: spectacular benefits and profit sharing would offset this salary expectation to some degree.

Paingod wrote:I've got a phone interview tomorrow with a larger organization that works at the State level (but I don't know if it is a state entity, or just a state-supporting entity). The position is IT Manager, reporting to a Director that runs all the support services departments. There are a number of people I see on LinkedIn - Security Admin, Network Admin, Network & Ops Supervisor, Technician - that would be under that role, and likely a few more I don't see - Help Desk, Desktop Support, etc. They publish a yearly report and it looks like computer services, equipment, and maintenance ran just over $1M last year. Their total administrative budget was over $9M last year, with the bulk of that (about $5M) being "Employee" costs. I'm struggling to determine what a good salary number would be for someone managing a fair sized group of people on a million dollar budget would be. It's the largest organization I've interviewed with, and I'm excited for the opportunity to try out for it - but I get the feeling that this should earn far more than I make as a one-man-show doing IT at all levels. Salary calculators are all over the place, from $60,000 to $120,000, and seem of little use.

For the professionals here that dabble in salaries or have some experience in the field, what sounds right for a position like that?

$105k

In my phone interview, they mentioned the range as $70K-$100K. I don't know if the business would be excited to know the recruiting agent they hired was giving their target out so easily. Her first question before anything else was "What's your current salary?" and was followed immediately by "What range are you looking for?" I side-stepped the first question - because they really don't need to know - by saying "I prefer to keep that confidential to avoid tainting future salary negotiations" and the second by saying "I'm not sure if what I have in mind is is too excessive. What range would you be looking in?"

The position involves managing 5 people, and reporting to 1. I wasn't sure what I was expecting, but 5 is far fewer than I thought it would be. Based on their questions, they have a very generalist range of IT staff and are looking to bend that into a more specialized structure and are somewhat concerned that there may be some resistance in the current staff.

Paingod wrote:Her first question before anything else was "What's your current salary?" and was followed immediately by "What range are you looking for?" I side-stepped the first question - because they really don't need to know - by saying "I prefer to keep that confidential to avoid tainting future salary negotiations" and the second by saying "I'm not sure if what I have in mind is is too excessive. What range would you be looking in?"

Wouldn't being honest about those two answers do more good than harm towards your goals? If you know that you make $X, and you know that it would take $X + Y% to get you to leave, why wouldn't you tell the recruiter that?

If that puts you way outside of their range - doesn't that help you not waste your time? If they were willing to go higher, that seems like less of a problem if you honestly provided Y. In that case, you'd be getting paid what you asked for.

As I've mentioned before, I don't typically give them Y, but I have no problem telling them $X. You know what I make, and you need to get me to leave my current job, and you've got exactly one chance to convince me. It's worked every time. Even the one time that $X was $0.

I went with what $X used to be (they knew I was unemployed at the time), and what Y% would have been to get me to leave $X. And they matched it.

The problem with that honesty is that I have historically been underpaid - and admitting that isn't something I'd love to carry over into a new employer. I've struggled through two jobs now trying to correct that imbalance. Each time I move on, I get closer to the 'correct' wage for my field and experience.... but when I started 10 years ago, I was at $14 an hour doing the job of someone who should have been making $50,000/yr - but I was frikkin' desperate to get into the field amidst a hoard of other prospects and wrote it off as resume payments. It doesn't seem cool to say "Hey, yeah - I'm underpaid and you're my next big raise. Let's talk"

On the other side, I've had potential employers boggle at me when I gave a reasonable range, and they countered by throwing completely unreasonably low numbers at me in return. I specifically didn't want to have the interview end right then and there.

Everything I've read has always trended towards saving the salary negotiations until the absolute end of the process - and every interview I've gone to has included it at the beginning now. This was a phone interview, before any sit down and meet you thing, and they wanted salary info as the very first question - which seems absurd. That's like asking someone out by saying "Hi, I'm Bob. Do you swallow?"

I haven't had my refusal hurt me so far, either. It might show some backbone and character, which they might like. I still get interviews, and I may not be missing much by not being invited to sit with people who only care that they get people that are paid as little as possible.

Then you might give them a number higher than what you deem acceptable, and let them know that number is adjustable either way depending on the total compensation package (benefits). Salary shouldn't be all that matters. If they come in below your number, make sure they are offering something else to make up for it (like, say, an extra week vacation -- ask for it if they simply offer less money). Since you went in high, you can afford to give some ground and still come out ahead. If they insist on knowing what you are making, inform them the number you are giving is the minimum of what it takes for you to leave your present employer.

Paingod wrote:The problem with that honesty is that I have historically been underpaid - and admitting that isn't something I'd love to carry over into a new employer.

Ah, fair enough, that makes sense to me.

My job laid off one of my better friends at work because he was getting old and expensive. Replaced him with two younger people. 16 years and my boss couldn't even do it herself. She hid until he left. So ya morale is at record levels right now.

I have 2 different time accounting systems that need to be filled out and in alignment. They bear no relationship to what the beancounters actually charge my clients. I got waylayed in the hall by one of my clients that I was working way too much and he was eager to see my progress. I haven't touched his project in two months. I have no hours in my time records for his project. ....yeah...they've been CHARGING him for time I haven't billed.

FML. I would say I'm getting too old for this, but .....dang.

Octavious wrote:My job laid off one of my better friends at work because he was getting old and expensive. Replaced him with two younger people. 16 years and my boss couldn't even do it herself. She hid until he left. So ya morale is at record levels right now.

That right there is one of the reasons I want to slide into IT Management instead of staying in the field. Companies seem to have lost respect for people who spend their lives supporting them and helping them be profitable. Additionally, an older IT Manager generally seen as seasoned; an older IT Tech is generally seen as stale. I could be wrong. Every 'older' IT person I've worked with has had some amount of trouble keeping up with the younger guys, with rare exceptions. I did work with one programmer who was around 60 and could code circles around his competition - he took about 1/3 to 1/4 of the time other programmers took to get things done.

dfs wrote:they've been CHARGING him for time I haven't billed.

You work for Wells Fargo or something? That's either extreme negligence or fraud. I hope you're able to get it corrected without damaging client relations too badly. Either that, or you're about to have a really long weekend of unbillable time spent catching up for the client

Paingod wrote:

Octavious wrote:My job laid off one of my better friends at work because he was getting old and expensive. Replaced him with two younger people. 16 years and my boss couldn't even do it herself. She hid until he left. So ya morale is at record levels right now.

That right there is one of the reasons I want to slide into IT Management instead of staying in the field. Companies seem to have lost respect for people who spend their lives supporting them and helping them be profitable. Additionally, an older IT Manager generally seen as seasoned; an older IT Tech is generally seen as stale. I could be wrong. Every 'older' IT person I've worked with has had some amount of trouble keeping up with the younger guys, with rare exceptions. I did work with one programmer who was around 60 and could code circles around his competition - he took about 1/3 to 1/4 of the time other programmers took to get things done.

dfs wrote:they've been CHARGING him for time I haven't billed.

You work for Wells Fargo or something? That's either extreme negligence or fraud. I hope you're able to get it corrected without damaging client relations too badly. Either that, or you're about to have a really long weekend of unbillable time spent catching up for the client

He was a PM and honestly he wasn't the best in the universe, but he tried really hard. Would stay until 7PM most nights to try and keep up. The two new people? Both leave at 5 with a cloud of smoke behind them.

Octavious wrote:My job laid off one of my better friends at work because he was getting old and expensive. Replaced him with two younger people. 16 years and my boss couldn't even do it herself. She hid until he left. So ya morale is at record levels right now.

That's a fear of mine. I feel I both make way too much money and not enough. It seems to me they could roll the dice and hire 1.5 of me for my salary and benefits and hope they get someone else competent and easy to work with based on their interviews. As time goes by 1.5 will approach 2.

At the same time, for as much money as I make compared to the average household income, I don't make too much more than paycheck to paycheck living a lower middle class life supporting only myself. It boggles my feeble imagination.

I take my not much more than paycheck to paycheck and ferret it away figuring the inevitable will happen but hoping it doesn't happen before I can afford a to retire on bread crumbs.

They hired a teacher to fill one of the three open English positions we have had from the beginning of the year. We are now being asked to develop professional growth plans based off a great system that stresses how student engagement should be the focus not standardized test scores. Sadly we are being told we must include at least one standardized test in our goals. So that makes sense.
My classroom ceiling has fallen in twice due to a roof leak that took them weeks to fix. The heater did not work for a few weeks then leaked when they got it "fixed" so had to be shut down and repaired all over again. I currently make less money now than I did 8 years ago, have fewer sick days, insurance is no where near as good, and no real contract as ours expired last year and the district PTB won't talk to the teacher's union.
Then there is the lovely rumor that the State legislature is planning on attacking teacher pensions again during this coming lame duck session.

So yeah, my career sucks ass right now.

Octavious wrote:My job laid off one of my better friends at work because he was getting old and expensive. Replaced him with two younger people. 16 years and my boss couldn't even do it herself. She hid until he left. So ya morale is at record levels right now.

Sucks. When absolute cost is your discriminator in all things...yeah. Anyway I'm surprised they have PMs at all and don't just make managers do it as a side job like many other places.

As a random side note to the thread - I just updated my resume because I'm coming off a gig. I'm a consultant with a national firm you have likely heard of and I've been with this client (Global FS firm) since Nov/Dec. I tend to do this when it looks like I'm hitting the bench just to keep it fresh in case it looks like I'm going to languish too long. Anyway that unleashed an endless torrent of job opportunity calls based on my background in cybersecurity. It put to rest any career concerns since I have no doubts I'll be able to find work for the foreseeable future. But most interestingly I got a call for one position with the hiring manager being a former boss of mine from a former life. So we ended having a very interesting slightly informal call about the position which is now suddenly very tempting. I get along with him very well and we mesh temperamentally. I'm going to spend the weekend thinking about it but I also just got another gig doing some interesting work for a major pharma...so a bit of a tough decision whether to go forward or not.

My company doesn't engage those sort of tactics. They did, however, use the spin off as an opportunity to give an offer that couldn't be refused by anyone within spitting distance of retirement - one of my techs with almost 45 years with the company retired 9 months early because of this. Our oldest techs are the most reliable and the least likely to run into a wall - I can assign them anything confident they will figure it out even if I don't know the solution myself. Unfortunately, after the split, with the one guy retiring and another switching teams, I no longer have any level 3 techs reporting to me so I need to baby sit projects and difficult issues more than I really have time for.

Paingod wrote:

dfs wrote:they've been CHARGING him for time I haven't billed.

You work for Wells Fargo or something? That's either extreme negligence or fraud. I hope you're able to get it corrected without damaging client relations too badly. Either that, or you're about to have a really long weekend of unbillable time spent catching up for the client

I'm as transparent as transparent can be. I told the client the truth. He's a lifer and has seen far worse cases than what goes on here. We understand each other.

The thing is...I've navigated my working life to the point where I'm really happy with the work, the hours and the pay....but the financial shenanigans pulled by the people who are payed for by my overhead are making things difficult where they don't have to be. Instead of taking what I'm earning, those folks want it ALL. I may have to have some chats with folks about this and play chicken and threaten to up and leave.

I missed that whole thing dfs. That is fuct. I am in a similar boat with 2 timekeeping systems and I approve the invoices as well which helps keep it straight. I don't think I'd be cool with them fraudulently billing time. Is it showing up in timekeeping? If not, start screen shotting that shit.

I've worked for a Fortune 15 company, doing off-hours healthcare IT support, for the past 11 years. Due to some abhorrent mismanagement all the way at the top, the software I support is going away, and any promotion or career advancement opportunities at the company completely dried up, while my workload became completely unmanageable. They paid me enough where I tried to justify hanging around until getting laid off, but after hating my job for years now and being completely miserable, I finally made good on my intention to get out of there even if it meant taking a pay cut. A random email from recruiter who saw my profile on LinkedIn materialized in an interview. Even though I went to that interview on about 3 hours of sleep not caring in the least whether I get the job or not - somehow they liked me enough to extend a job offer the same day. Hopefully my references and background check clear, since I already gave notice at my current job I'll be going to work for a company of <30 people, and yes, it'll mean a pay cut, but if things work out, I could actually get on a viable career path and hopefully not hate every day of my work existence.

I have joined the organization's community outreach committee. My first task is to find some opportunities in support of the military. Our organization was started 80 years ago around an aircraft manufacturer that has made some well-known airframes, and we have not had any significant connection to the military or veterans in my three years there.

gilraen wrote:I'll be going to work for a company of <30 people, and yes, it'll mean a pay cut, but if things work out, I could actually get on a viable career path and hopefully not hate every day of my work existence.

One big thing I get from working for smaller businesses (30-100 users) is that I get to know the company intimately, inside and out, and the people all know me. It's good to be the hero, and not just some nameless cog in the machine. It also keeps the work relatively varied, from help desk to rolling out virtual servers to running cable.

Isgrimnur wrote:I have joined the organization's community outreach committee. My first task is to find some opportunities in support of the military. Our organization was started 80 years ago around an aircraft manufacturer that has made some well-known airframes, and we have not had any significant connection to the military or veterans in my three years there.

coopasonic wrote:

Isgrimnur wrote:I have joined the organization's community outreach committee. My first task is to find some opportunities in support of the military. Our organization was started 80 years ago around an aircraft manufacturer that has made some well-known airframes, and we have not had any significant connection to the military or veterans in my three years there.

Very insightful.

damn naked url...

http://www.dfwwreaths.com/

My career has been going fine but my future job prospects likely took a hit on Tuesday. Reduced funding to sciences and a potential freeze of federal hiring may really limit my opportunities. It was similarly bad in 2007 - 2009, but I was in grad school already so it didn't affect me. Now however....

coopasonic wrote:damn naked url...

http://www.dfwwreaths.com/

Not bad. A little close for this year, but definitely something to present for the calendar next year.

Great now.

Have 2 active podcasts and am in the early stages of negotiations for an afternoon drive radio show. The networking company is growing much slower, but people are sticking, so there's that. Regardless, I'm in it for the long haul. Here's to not waiting too much longer for some answers.

Three months in, so far, so good. I seem to be getting things done (though never as much as I'd like) and don't think I've made any significant gaffs. I think I'm balancing the needs of my team while still being stern enough to ensure that they feel some pressure to perform. My boss seems satisfied (he likes to be inscrutable so it's a bit hard to tell), and I'm getting along with everyone well enough.

Also, I leave for Japan on Saturday for a whirlwind trip to the Toyota plant in Takahama. That ought to be interesting, though it's possible I may starve to death while I'm there. I'm a fairly picky eater.

Their Christmas tradition is KFC. You'll be fine.

Isgrimnur wrote:Their Christmas tradition is KFC. You'll be fine.

I recently found a cache of photos the guy who went to this meeting last year took, including shots of most of his meals. None of it looked remotely like KFC. I will be pretty much trapped with the other meeting attendees at a Toyota plant all day, and then wherever we've been scheduled to eat dinner. Going off for an order of extra-crispy probably won't be an option.

So if anyone is in IT and is thinking about a career change I think cyber security is a bottomless well at least gor the near term. It has been nearly three weeks since I simply updated my resume and I am still fielding 5 to 6 unique calls a day. It has become annoying at this point. More than half offer relos; it is crazy.

coopasonic wrote:damn naked url...

http://www.dfwwreaths.com/

DFW Wreaths?

Missed marketing opportunity there. I'm hearing Dallas-Fort Wreaths. Should be seeing it.




Congrats nasai and Odin, things sound good. You two are going to meet up in Japan, right?

malchior wrote:So if anyone is in IT and is thinking about a career change I think cyber security is a bottomless well at least gor the near term. It has been nearly three weeks since I simply updated my resume and I am still fielding 5 to 6 unique calls a day. It has become annoying at this point. More than half offer relos; it is crazy.

Just curious, as someone always looking to move forward in the IT field, what degrees or certs do you hold?

I have a BS in Business Administration and a CISSP currently. I have had other certifications over the years - but I let them lapse. I don't think they matter much in the grand scheme of themes at my level. However there are a lot of paths into cyber security right now though - each with their own rewards - and possibilities. It is a gold mine and I've been through several waves and this has been the deepest vein I've seen yet. Data science/big data is hot too but we'll see if it has the longevity we have seen in cyber security.

I don't have a career, I have a job. My next paycheck will have 130+ hours on it, so I guess the degree was a waste of money. I will probably hit 90k this year.

I graduated from nursing school on Saturday!!!

School was a real bear all the way. Couldn't be happier to be done with it.

Now my only significant hurdle left is the NCLEX (licensing exam for RN's). Start my first nursing job on February 20th.

Just have to keep solvent until then.

Congratulations!

Seems they have stopped laying off all the old people, but now this is like the most depressing place ever. Everyone is just miserable and it's dead silent in here. I think I would prefer the DMV to this. I so want to find somewhere else to work, but I totally stink at finding something. Which is why I have put up with all their insane shit for 14 f'n years.

malchior wrote:I have a BS in Business Administration and a CISSP currently.

Out of curiosity, how hard was that CISSP to get? It's listed as an "Expert" level certification, and I've eyed it - but something like a 6 hour test with 250 questions is a touch on the daunting side. Not that I doubt it would be worth it. I had found a couple sample test books on Amazon for like $25 and thought I might try one to see how I fare without any prep. My biggest drawback is my generalist nature in IT - a little of everything, no great focus, but I also feel that security is going to remain a HUGE factor going forward, and only get more intense and in-demand with time.

My next career goals include basically following your path - I've already got an Associates in Computer Science with 10 years of practical application, and a BS in Business Admin with a couple 'high level' certifications should tidy up my resume and shift it closer to a Director job eventually, or at least a larger organization where I'd manage a number of people and stop doing everything myself.

Octavious wrote:Seems they have stopped laying off all the old people, but now this is like the most depressing place ever. Everyone is just miserable and it's dead silent in here. I think I would prefer the DMV to this. I so want to find somewhere else to work, but I totally stink at finding something. Which is why I have put up with all their insane shit for 14 f'n years.

As someone who's shifted jobs a few times in the last decade, each step has been horrifying when I make it, but rewarding when it's done. I don't know if I could stay anywhere for 14 years if it was making me crazy. I lasted 7 years with one employer because I kept moving up there, but when I peaked I left with my chair still spinning before the door had closed behind me.

I applied for my first tenure-track faculty position last week. The likelihood of even being invited for an interview is low, but I thought it was time to at least put together a package. Plus, I figure I better start looking now before any likely federal hiring freeze goes into effect...