F*** me, Ray Bradbury (Burning the Quran)

Anonymous Bosch · Post by **Anonymous Bosch** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:29 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote:
cheeba wrote:
Carpet_pissr wrote:I would feel the same way if someone was to publicly announce that they were going to do ANYthing that would harm so many people, not to mention completely (at least temporarily) fuck up international relations.
So what you're saying is you want us to go to jail for calling the French cheese-eating surrender monkeys?
Yup. Exactly. You nailed it.

How about the depiction of urination on a religious founder? Should that have been banninated, or was that fair game since members of that particular religion were less inclined to blow shit up and kill people in response?

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:52 pm

If the burning is off now, what's this guy going to do with all those books? Is putting them out with the recycling less offensive than burning them? Since he believes it's Satan's book a yard sale is probably out of the question.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:12 am

Apparently someone told him that the Imam Rauf hadn't actually said anything about meeting with him or moving the mosque, so now he is 'reconsidering' his decision to cancel the burning.

tgb · Post by **tgb** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 7:05 am

I actually owned this when I was in college. I don't remember a whole lot about it, though.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:42 am

Isgrimnur wrote:Yelling "fire" in a crowded theater creates an immediate panic situation that would create a reasonable expectation of causing immediate harm due to natural reactions. burning a book that makes someone angry enough to attack our forces is not an immediate panic situation. And therein lies the difference as to why one is illegal and one is not.

The end result is that there will likely be injuries in both cases, but there are differences in time frame and personal responsibility that do not make these cases equal.

Thanks for that reasoned response.

Smoove_B · Post by **Smoove_B** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:10 am

tgb wrote:I actually owned this when I was in college. I don't remember a whole lot about it, though.

You just need to remember the last two words:

YANKEE ROSE

/god damn it lady. you know I ain't lyin' to ya I'm only gonna tell you one time-aaahh!

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:07 am

Blackhawk wrote:Apparently someone told him that the Imam Rauf hadn't actually said anything about meeting with him or moving the mosque, so now he is 'reconsidering' his decision to cancel the burning.

Either way, the Westboro Baptist church has stepped up to make sure the Qur'an gets burned (again).

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:52 am

In a burst of cosmic coincidence that as far as I am concerned definitively proves the existence of God, it turns out that Terry Jones and Rush Limbaugh graduated high school together.

craterus · Post by **craterus** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:43 am

Luckily the media are doing the research needed to provide people a target for their anger

http://www.wtsp.com/news/national/story ... 5&catid=81" target="_blank

what the fuck? do we need to know where his condo is? did his NEIGHBORS need to become targets of reprisal (beyond the obvious target of whereever he happens to be standing at the time)? (I am not saying it will happen but we all know muham mad is going to FREAK OUT... the media told us so, and i am sure he will feel the need to oblige)

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:50 pm

Mr. Fed wrote:
Carpet_pissr wrote:
cheeba wrote:
Carpet_pissr wrote:I would feel the same way if someone was to publicly announce that they were going to do ANYthing that would harm so many people, not to mention completely (at least temporarily) fuck up international relations.
So what you're saying is you want us to go to jail for calling the French cheese-eating surrender monkeys?
Yup. Exactly. You nailed it.
Okay. What is your guiding principle for exactly what speech can be censored because it might antagonize someone?

You have me there. I do not have a suggestion as to how that should or could be legally defined to be enforceable.

Was reading a NY Times piece this morning on the Pentagon buying up and destroying all copies (yeah right, do they really think that will work?!) of a book that has been published by a former Pentagon official because they feel it contains information that would jeopardize too many missions.

It made me think...ok in the case of the Quran burning, WHO established that serious harm would result? I can point to several high ranking officials, as well as numerous religious leaders, generals, the President, etc., but I don't know. Definitely a slippery slope there. How would you legally define that? I assume you would have to have something like yet another Presidential "special power" to handle special cases like this, and hope they make the right call. No idea really.

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:53 pm

craterus wrote:Luckily the media are doing the research needed to provide people a target for their anger

http://www.wtsp.com/news/national/story ... 5&catid=81" target="_blank

what the fuck? do we need to know where his condo is? did his NEIGHBORS need to become targets of reprisal (beyond the obvious target of whereever he happens to be standing at the time)? (I am not saying it will happen but we all know muham mad is going to FREAK OUT... the media told us so, and i am sure he will feel the need to oblige)

I think there's a great deal of irresponsible behavior coming from all directions in this situation.

in other news...

Did Sam Elliot and Malcolm McDowell have a child together?

tgb · Post by **tgb** » Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:47 pm

So what happened?

msduncan · Post by **msduncan** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 1:38 pm

Ironically the fervent opposition and paranoia surrounding this burning thing is causing me to recoil.

I was against the burning of these books just because it's was a contrived publicity stunt. Now I'm starting to rethink my position because of the gratuitous hand wringing and straight up threats of what might happen if we dare to touch an Islamic holy book. They constantly burn American flags and take pictures of themselves standing on it (a vile insult in the muslim world), they cheered in the streets when the twin towers came down, but we are supposed to collectively fear for our lives when we DARE to burn some commercially mass produced paperbacks?

Fuck them. I'm inclined to go out and burn one myself.

And the Imam of that ground zero mosque went on a televised interview and delivered what can only be described as a very thinly veiled threat against America if they aren't allowed to build it.

Fuck him too, with pork products.... in the fucking mouth.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:41 pm

msduncan wrote:Ironically the fervent opposition and paranoia surrounding this burning thing is causing me to recoil.

I was against the burning of these books just because it's was a contrived publicity stunt. Now I'm starting to rethink my position because of the gratuitous hand wringing and straight up threats of what might happen if we dare to touch an Islamic holy book. They constantly burn American flags and take pictures of themselves standing on it (a vile insult in the muslim world), they cheered in the streets when the twin towers came down, but we are supposed to collectively fear for our lives when we DARE to burn some commercially mass produced paperbacks?

Why does it bother you when they burn and stand on commercially mass produced colored cloth?

But I agree that the argument "Oooh, Muslims might hurt us if we burn the Koran" has no place in this debate. We can ignore that one. We have other, much better and more powerful reasons not to burn books in this country. That's why we're the Good Guys.

Seriously, if we decide that 9/11 means we are at war with Islam generally, where does it stop? What percentage of Muslims do you think are actively fighting against the U.S., and what's the cut-off for just declaring all of them the Enemy?

Mr. Fed · Post by **Mr. Fed** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:24 pm

The existence of a dispute does not mean that there's any good guys in the dispute.

msduncan · Post by **msduncan** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:28 pm

Paul Roberts wrote:
Why does it bother you when they burn and stand on commercially mass produced colored cloth?

That's precisely the point. I've seen them doing it for as long as I can remember (30 years?) and I don't even think twice about it because the images are always there. But somehow I'm supposed to bend over backwards to stop some idiot in Florida, or NY or whatever from doing it because we fear the wrath of the very same people doing that to our mass produced commercial symbols? It's bullshit.

But I agree that the argument "Oooh, Muslims might hurt us if we burn the Koran" has no place in this debate. We can ignore that one. We have other, much better and more powerful reasons not to burn books in this country. That's why we're the Good Guys.

There is a difference in cleaning out libraries into piles and burning books, and a few groups of people deciding to get some attention or make a constitutionally protected statement by burning a handful of tombs. To try to equate this to what Nazi Germany did it ridiculous and misguided.

Seriously, if we decide that 9/11 means we are at war with Islam generally, where does it stop? What percentage of Muslims do you think are actively fighting against the U.S., and what's the cut-off for just declaring all of them the Enemy?

I don't recall the US government making a decision that we are at war with Muslims. And the last time I checked, some dude in NY city and come church in Florida can't declare war for us.

I'm not going to cower in fear, or stop people from making statements because Muslims can't drag their asses out of the 1st century BC and get over it. GET the fuck over it. And while you are at it: stop brutalizing and stoning women to death too.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:39 pm

You keep saying "I'm not going to cower in fear" as if book-burning is a good way to express your courage. Book-burning is just stupid, and the fact that Terry Jones and right-wing media have made it a referendum on our courage is just nuts.

The stunt is wrong because it attacks a whole huge group for the crimes of a small part of it. You can't do a targeted Koran burning. You can't say "Oh, we only mean this because of the terrorism, not the disagreements about God." It's too crude and stupid a statement to mean anything but "Fuck Y'all and Allah, Bring It On."

Listen, the terrorists *want* Americans to burn their book. It makes us the Satan they need. It gives them recruits. They'll be there with mega-dittos. If Terry Jones and company can't imagine that not every Muslim is a terrorist, then they're stuck in the Middle Ages right there with the Taliban.

Moliere · Post by **Moliere** » Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:00 pm

msduncan wrote:because Muslims can't drag their asses out of the 1st century BC and get over it.

Actually it's the 7th century CE.

UsulofDoom · Post by **UsulofDoom** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:30 am

I think this has been a conspiracy made by the book publishers. Since e-books and the internet they are hurting. You burn the books they will make more for you!

Hey if I delete the Quran from my Hard drive would that be the same as burning it. How about a down load and delete the book day?

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:48 am

If I see a pit bull attack someone, I don't immediately pull down my pants and wave my penis in its face for 20 minutes in order to show everyone I'm not afraid.

...at least not now.

$iljanus · Post by **$iljanus** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:59 am

hepcat wrote:If I see a pit bull attack someone, I don't immediately pull down my pants and wave my penis in its face for 20 minutes in order to show everyone I'm not afraid.

...at least not now.

That is one of the strangest analogies I've read on this topic, yet I don't have a hard time imagining hearing Secretary Clinton make that statement (probably behind closed doors). And I actually mean that in a complimentary way towards her, penis comment aside. May have to change my sig now.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:51 pm

Better still, imagine her adding a punchline..."Plus, I leave the penis wagging to my husband...BADOOOM CHAA!"

My Respect-O-Meter would go way up for something like that.

cheeba · Post by **cheeba** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:31 pm

You don't think Hillary would wag her penis?

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:45 pm

Two Afghans die protesting Koran burning

KABUL, Afghanistan — Two protesters died and four were injured as Afghans protested for a third day yesterday against a plan by an American pastor to burn copies of the Islamic holy book, despite his decision to call it off.

...

In a country where most people have limited access to newspapers, television, and the Internet, many Afghans seemed unaware of Jones’s decision to call off the Koran burning.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:56 pm

hepcat wrote:If I see a pit bull attack someone, I don't immediately pull down my pants and wave my penis in its face for 20 minutes in order to show everyone I'm not afraid.

Possible Ways to Make Hepcat Wave His Penis in a Pit Bull's Face for 20 Minutes
Dress the pit bull in a roller derby outfit
Shave the pit bull completely bare
Talk a lot about kittens, but have a pit bull nearby
Show him the pit bull attacking someone
Place a large frozen margaritta 3 feet behind a pit bull

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:30 pm

Unagi wrote: Place a large frozen margaritta 3 feet behind a pit bull

I knew my habit of disrobing every time someone hands me a margarita would come back to haunt me some day...

Victoria Raverna · Post by **Victoria Raverna** » Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:57 pm

Kraken wrote:Two Afghans die protesting Koran burning

KABUL, Afghanistan — Two protesters died and four were injured as Afghans protested for a third day yesterday against a plan by an American pastor to burn copies of the Islamic holy book, despite his decision to call it off.

...

In a country where most people have limited access to newspapers, television, and the Internet, many Afghans seemed unaware of Jones’s decision to call off the Koran burning.

18 killed in Kashmir

The long-troubled state of Kashmir suffered one of its bloodiest days when at least 18 people were killed and more than a hundred injured as security forces opened fire on protesters in confrontations across the valley.

So far the victims are muslims so maybe the Quran burning plan is effective in hurting the "enemies".

But as result of this "burning/not burning" thing, Christians have been attacked around the world. One stabbing in Bekasi, Indonesia (only partially related to the Quran burning). One Christian school burned in Kashmir (related to the above protest that killed 18 people).

I guess it is very brave to provoke extremist muslims in the safety of USA. Next time, try to do it outside US.

Brave men?

A hate-filled fanatic ripped pages out of a Koran and lit them aflame Saturday amid the chaos outside the planned community center and mosque near Ground Zero.

...

Another man walked up Church St., ripping pages from a Koran and offering them to passersby as "toilet paper."

...

The Koran burning was not just confined to New York. In Springfield, Tenn., two pastors, Danny Allen and Bob Old, were photographed lighting Korans on fire.

...

Cops pounced on one protester, 29-year-old Sebastain Bagby, when he held up a Koran and whipped out a lighter. The officers grabbed the items out of Bagby's hand but didn't arrest him.

cheeba · Post by **cheeba** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:11 am

Victoria Raverna wrote:I guess it is very brave to provoke extremist muslims in the safety of USA. Next time, try to do it in outside US.

Lame. You don't have a single word to say against the muslims killing each other because some idiots half a world away are burning a stupid book, but you question the bravery of people expressing themselves freely in their own country?

Victoria Raverna · Post by **Victoria Raverna** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:26 am

cheeba wrote:
Victoria Raverna wrote:I guess it is very brave to provoke extremist muslims in the safety of USA. Next time, try to do it in outside US.
Lame. You don't have a single word to say against the muslims killing each other because some idiots half a world away are burning a stupid book, but you question the bravery of people expressing themselves freely in their own country?

I don't care about stupid people killing each other because of a stupid book, muslim or not. I care about innocent people who done nothing to provoke the stupid muslim extremists getting attacked because some stupid Americans think it is brave to burn a stupid book in the safety of US.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 12:50 am

Victoria Raverna wrote:
cheeba wrote:
Victoria Raverna wrote:I guess it is very brave to provoke extremist muslims in the safety of USA. Next time, try to do it in outside US.
Lame. You don't have a single word to say against the muslims killing each other because some idiots half a world away are burning a stupid book, but you question the bravery of people expressing themselves freely in their own country?
I don't care about stupid people killing each other because of a stupid book, muslim or not. I care about innocent people who done nothing to provoke the stupid muslim extremists getting attacked because some stupid Americans think it is brave to burn a stupid book in the safety of US.

Do you blame the stupid Americans as much or more than you do those extremists who are, you know, actually committing the violence?

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 1:04 am

"Stupid" = dying while protesting something that didn't actually happen.

Victoria Raverna · Post by **Victoria Raverna** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 2:37 am

Kraken wrote:"Stupid" = dying while protesting something that didn't actually happen.

Dying while protesting something that did happen = Still Stupid.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/201 ... rry_j.html" target="_blank

A hate-filled fanatic ripped pages out of a Koran and lit them aflame Saturday amid the chaos outside the planned community center and mosque near Ground Zero.

...

Another man walked up Church St., ripping pages from a Koran and offering them to passersby as "toilet paper."

...

The Koran burning was not just confined to New York. In Springfield, Tenn., two pastors, Danny Allen and Bob Old, were photographed lighting Korans on fire.

...

Cops pounced on one protester, 29-year-old Sebastain Bagby, when he held up a Koran and whipped out a lighter. The officers grabbed the items out of Bagby's hand but didn't arrest him.

msduncan · Post by **msduncan** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 8:58 am

It's a fucking book. Drag your asses into even the 18th century PLEASE.

Either that, or we all need to start wearing armor and begin jousting for budget money.

msduncan · Post by **msduncan** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:03 am

Seriously though:

Isn't the best way to force change on such a antiquated, violent, sexist, and oppressive religion/culture to overwhelm it with non-violent challenges until it is forced to adapt?

This is the same technique used to force change in the 1960's with discrimination. It's worked other places as an agent of change.

Why do we tiptoe around Islam and literally bend over backwards to keep from 'offending' it, even as we watch people kill each other and stone women and gays to death in the name of it? This religion needs to adjust to modern society or people will continue to die and suffer.

Holman · Post by **Holman** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:43 am

msduncan wrote:Seriously though:

Isn't the best way to force change on such a antiquated, violent, sexist, and oppressive religion/culture to overwhelm it with non-violent challenges until it is forced to adapt?

This is the same technique used to force change in the 1960's with discrimination. It's worked other places as an agent of change.

Why do we tiptoe around Islam and literally bend over backwards to keep from 'offending' it, even as we watch people kill each other and stone women and gays to death in the name of it? This religion needs to adjust to modern society or people will continue to die and suffer.

There has to be a way to do these things. But some considerations:

Yes, you and I agree that the Koran is just a book like any other. It means nothing particularly special to us. But earlier you complained about some Islamists burning the U.S. flag. Burning the Koran is, for them, like burning the flag and the Bible and Shakespeare all at the same time. The symbolic weight is massive.

And, when you burn their book, you're sending that kind of massive F-You not just to the Taliban and to Al Qaeda. but to every urbanized, cosmopolitan Muslim in America and Europe. You're sending it to majority Islam, which is as far from stoning and primitive tribal justice as you are.

You're sending it to the Afghan and Iraqi soldiers and politicians and warlords who are working *with* us to fight Islamic extremism. You're sending it to people who are actually on the front lines *against* the Taliban and Al Qaeda, and to those who are wavering but close to the fight.

The fight against Islamic extremism is bigger than 9-11. Way more innocent Muslims than innocent Americans have died by extremist hands in this fight, and all of those dead civilians have relatives and friends and neighbors. When you burn their Koran to make a bold statement of "courage," you're giving a big F-You to all of them too.

Most of all, the extremists want us not to be anti-extremist, but anti-Islam, universally. When you burn their book, you're telling their story for them. You're winning their battle.

Islamic extremism is a huge danger to the world, but there is no way on Earth we're going to defeat it without the alliance and effort of moderate Islam. Is holding a Koran burning and celebrating it as a statement of our resolve any way to get closer to that?

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:57 am

msduncan wrote:Seriously though:

Isn't the best way to force change on such a antiquated, violent, sexist, and oppressive religion/culture to overwhelm it with non-violent challenges until it is forced to adapt?

This is the same technique used to force change in the 1960's with discrimination. It's worked other places as an agent of change.

Why do we tiptoe around Islam and literally bend over backwards to keep from 'offending' it, even as we watch people kill each other and stone women and gays to death in the name of it? This religion needs to adjust to modern society or people will continue to die and suffer.

I agree that we shouldn't tip-toe around abuses committed by extremist Islamists in the name of their religion, just as we shouldn't tiptoe around abuses committed by religious extremists of other faiths.

But burning the Quran isn't protesting Islamic extremism or abuses, it's protesting Islam itself. It would be one thing if they were burning Burqas or something, but the Quran is the holy book of Islamic moderates and all muslims everywhere as much as it is the holy book of Al Qaeda.

And the Quran as just a "fucking book" - is the Bible just a fucking book, or the Torah? It's not exactly extreme political correctness run amok to suggest that burning a holy book is kind of an asshole thing to do. Burning holy books is probably protected by the first amendment to at least some degree - but it's definitely an asshole thing to do.

Carpet_pissr · Post by **Carpet_pissr** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:13 am

Like it or not, Imam is right: this should not be a Christian v. Muslim issue, but moderate (of all faiths) v. extremist (of all faiths) issue. All moderates need to stand together in solidarity against the crazies of this world, Al Qaeda on one side, and Westboro Baptist Church on the other. Someone feel free to cite extremists factions of other religions.

HOW to stand together is another thing. The extremists on both sides likely WANT to be lumped together with the moderates, so as to maintain at least some mainstream support, but more importantly, because they appear to want another Crusades type Holy War. Fuck 'em I say. Warmongers and haters, you intolerant fucks, on BOTH side of the Christian and Muslim coin (what would THAT look like?!:) can kiss my ass.

$iljanus · Post by **$iljanus** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:57 am

msduncan wrote:Seriously though:

Isn't the best way to force change on such a antiquated, violent, sexist, and oppressive religion/culture to overwhelm it with non-violent challenges until it is forced to adapt?

This is the same technique used to force change in the 1960's with discrimination. It's worked other places as an agent of change.

Why do we tiptoe around Islam and literally bend over backwards to keep from 'offending' it, even as we watch people kill each other and stone women and gays to death in the name of it? This religion needs to adjust to modern society or people will continue to die and suffer.

I agree with that approach. However, I don't equate the burning of a holy book with non-violent protest. Let's look at the non-violent protests by civil rights protesters in the 50s and early 60s. By and large they were peaceful protests met by violence and anger. Let's say that in response they decided to burn one of the iconic symbols of that hatred, the Confederate Battle Flag (note: not a comment on the symbolism of that flag in 21st century America!). What do you think the reaction would be if black folks started burning that flag? On the short-term, it probably would be satisfying but think of the damage to the long term goal (not to mention a probable uptick in lynchings).

hepcat · Post by **hepcat** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:11 am

Defiant wrote:
Victoria Raverna wrote:
cheeba wrote:
Victoria Raverna wrote:I guess it is very brave to provoke extremist muslims in the safety of USA. Next time, try to do it in outside US.
Lame. You don't have a single word to say against the muslims killing each other because some idiots half a world away are burning a stupid book, but you question the bravery of people expressing themselves freely in their own country?
I don't care about stupid people killing each other because of a stupid book, muslim or not. I care about innocent people who done nothing to provoke the stupid muslim extremists getting attacked because some stupid Americans think it is brave to burn a stupid book in the safety of US.
Do you blame the stupid Americans as much or more than you do those extremists who are, you know, actually committing the violence?

When a drunken bus driver mows down people, I immediately blame the liquor company that made the booze he had on him.

...and with that, I'm done with the bad metaphors for the week.

Defiant · Post by **Defiant** » Tue Sep 14, 2010 11:12 am

hepcat wrote:
When a drunken bus driver mows down people, I immediately blame the liquor company that made the booze he had on him.

...and with that, I'm done with the bad metaphors for the week.

Apparently you missed the sarcasm. For the posts, I read that VR had more of an issue with Stupid Americans than Extremists.