Prague - (Game Thread) GAME ON!!!

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:28 pm

You mean you guys don't know who your OO team is yet?

(just kiddin)

Qantaga · Post by **Qantaga** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:08 am

stessier wrote:
Qantaga wrote:It seems like you're dissembling. Fake clues would not be difficult. Grund has already said that clues can run the gamut from vague to specific, so a vague bit of mutual exclusivity to your own clues would be rather simplistic. But, you know that already, don't you?
I don't know what you mean. Are you suggesting KIM would make a fake clue that essentially led to the correct game resolution? That would be pointless, no?

Any clue they fake has the potential to be found out by someone who has a contradictory clue. If they just reverse their own clue, which might be what you are suggesting, how would they know that clues don't over lap? Perhaps Bubba has a Clue that says Not A, B, and C and KIM has one that says it is D. They can't just say it is Not D, else Bubba will know they are lying.

stess, are you being deliberately obtuse? I think you know better.

Grund spells it out:

To create a false fact, contradict something that you know is true.

It is crystal clear that Grund did not build clues would allow for your scenario above. (Bubba knowing the lie because of cards he holds). The lie can certainly be uncovered with a collection of multiple player clues, but it will not hold the risk you are trying to ascribe to it.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:49 am

Qantaga wrote:
stessier wrote:
Qantaga wrote:It seems like you're dissembling. Fake clues would not be difficult. Grund has already said that clues can run the gamut from vague to specific, so a vague bit of mutual exclusivity to your own clues would be rather simplistic. But, you know that already, don't you?
I don't know what you mean. Are you suggesting KIM would make a fake clue that essentially led to the correct game resolution? That would be pointless, no?

Any clue they fake has the potential to be found out by someone who has a contradictory clue. If they just reverse their own clue, which might be what you are suggesting, how would they know that clues don't over lap? Perhaps Bubba has a Clue that says Not A, B, and C and KIM has one that says it is D. They can't just say it is Not D, else Bubba will know they are lying.

stess, are you being deliberately obtuse? I think you know better.

Grund spells it out:

To create a false fact, contradict something that you know is true.

It is crystal clear that Grund did not build clues would allow for your scenario above. (Bubba knowing the lie because of cards he holds). The lie can certainly be uncovered with a collection of multiple player clues, but it will not hold the risk you are trying to ascribe to it.

Why multiple player clues? Each player has multiple clues. I can tell you for a fact that clues can have more than one truth in them so why can't the combination provide as much information as I described?

Perhaps your crystal need polishing?

I think Grund was saying that to be sure you have a false fact, contradict something you know. Because you could randomly say "Bubba isn't in love with Suzie" and actually be right. That would certainly be egg on your face, no?

Qantaga · Post by **Qantaga** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:17 am

I suppose we'll have to wait until game's end to see whose view is closer to the truth. I find it hard to believe that Grund would design clues that would make it unlikely for KIM to successfully plant false clues.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:49 am

I designed clues with the following characteristics:

(a) Together, they form a deductively consistent list that validly implies the unique solution to the game's puzzle.
(b) Individually, they consist of declarative statements, simple or complex, about the puzzle's domain.

This means the following:

(c) A KIM agent may be sure he's offering a false statement by contradicting a statement he knows is true.
(d) A KIM agent may swap in a random statement for one of his known truths, but that random statement might turn out to be true for all he knows.
(e) Whether someone else catches the lie in (c) depends entirely on whether the would-be catcher knows something that contradicts the lie. There are two duplicate truths floating around (and these may be simple or complex). It is also possible for the sum of what one knows to allow one to deduce that some other proposition must be a lie.
(f) If a KIM agent swaps in one truth for another, whether intentionally or accidentally, this will go unnoticed (since it doesn't contradict anything) unless three duplicate items of knowledge are identified when the game only has two duplicates.
(g) The raw odds that someone will quickly or immediately catch a KIM agent in his lie if he follows the path of contradiction are real but fairly low, since catching the lie requires either that the lie be based on a duplicate (possible) or that it contradict an inference that follows from some other subset of the clues (possible).

Exquisite balance, I hope.

I think this summary affirms both of you. stessier is right that contradiction is the only path for generating known falsehoods; Qantaga is right that I wouldn't implement a system where exposing lies was easy and trivial.

It all depends on the cleverness of the players and the mostly random distribution of the clues.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:31 am

Grundbegriff wrote:Aggregate vote history:
stessier to interrogate Qantaga(1)
Lassr to interrogate Qantaga(2)
Qantaga to interrogate stessier(1)
Scoop20906 to interrogate Qantaga(3)
El Guapo to interrogate Newcastle(1)
Remus West to interrogate Chaosraven(1)
Unagi to interrogate Scoop20906(1)
bb2112 to interrogate Qantaga(4)

Individual vote history:
stessier: to interrogate Qantaga
Lassr: to interrogate Qantaga
Qantaga: to interrogate stessier
Scoop20906: to interrogate Qantaga
El Guapo: interrogate Newcastle
Remus West: interrogate Chaosraven
Unagi: interrogate Scoop20906
bb2112: interrogate Qantaga

Currently Targeted:
syntax: soandsoistargeted(withthismanyvotes): bythesepeople
Qantaga(4): stessier, Lassr, Scoop20906, bb2112
stessier(1): Qantaga
Newcastle(1): El Guapo
Chaosraven(1): Remus West
Scoop20906(1): Unagi

Majority: 6/10
No vote registered: Chaosraven, Newcastle

In more pressing matters - we really have to get someone to 6 today. Like in less than 12 hours. Why are there some "no votes"? Any special reason people don't want to interrogate Q (excepting Q of course)?

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:38 am

yes, there shouldn't be that big of a debate about interrogating. Pick one and run with it. They don't die...at least not yet.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:40 am

Lassr wrote:yes, there shouldn't be that big of a debate about interrogating. Pick one and run with it. They don't die...at least not yet.

You and George W.............waterboarding isn't torture. Sigh. Shouldn't we at least consider human rights? Only a terrorist would be so callus.

Lassr

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:47 am

Remus West wrote:
Lassr wrote:yes, there shouldn't be that big of a debate about interrogating. Pick one and run with it. They don't die...at least not yet.
You and George W.............waterboarding isn't torture. Sigh. Shouldn't we at least consider human rights? Only a terrorist would be so callus.

Lassr

so Q is your partner then...

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:49 am

Yeah, probably the most important thing is that someone get interrogated today, so that our handlers don't lose their scan tonight. Plus more clues, which are either true, or move us towards knocking out KIM.

So.... withdraw Newcastle
Qantaga

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:57 am

Lassr wrote:
Remus West wrote:
Lassr wrote:yes, there shouldn't be that big of a debate about interrogating. Pick one and run with it. They don't die...at least not yet.
You and George W.............waterboarding isn't torture. Sigh. Shouldn't we at least consider human rights? Only a terrorist would be so callus.

Lassr

so Q is your partner then...

Its certainly a possibility but I can not be certain.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:46 pm

It's just a simple interrogation - what's the worry.

interrogate Qantaga to death in the face!

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 7:42 pm

Aggregate vote history:
stessier to interrogate Qantaga(1)
Lassr to interrogate Qantaga(2)
Qantaga to interrogate stessier(1)
Scoop20906 to interrogate Qantaga(3)
El Guapo to interrogate Newcastle(1)
Remus West to interrogate Chaosraven(1)
Unagi to interrogate Scoop20906(1)
bb2112 to interrogate Qantaga(4)
Remus wd Chaosraven(0)
Remus to interrogate Lassr(1)
El Guapo wd Newcastle(0)
El Guapo to interrogate Qantaga(5)
Unagi wd Scoop20906(0)
Unagi to interrogate Qantaga(6)

Individual vote history:
stessier: to interrogate Qantaga
Lassr: to interrogate Qantaga
Qantaga: to interrogate stessier
Scoop20906: to interrogate Qantaga
bb2112: interrogate Qantaga
Remus West: interrogate Chaosraven, Lassr
El Guapo: interrogate Newcastle, Qantaga
Unagi: interrogate Scoop20906, Qantaga

Currently Targeted:
syntax: soandsoistargeted(withthismanyvotes): bythesepeople
Qantaga(6): stessier, Lassr, Scoop20906, bb2112, El Guapo, Unagi
stessier(1): Qantaga
Lassr(1): Remus West

Majority: 6/10
No vote registered: Chaosraven, Newcastle

Voting is closed.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:40 pm

Svatá Klára restaurant has been operating since the late 1600s, and its claim to fame is the fact that it occupies a natural subterranean cave. Globally lauded for the fine dining experience on offer, the restaurant also serves, before and after hours, as a convergence point for the city's not-so-clandestine field operatives.

On this evening, everyone arrives at a fashionably late hour to enjoy the repast and then abides until all but a few have gone.

Then the trouble begins.

A circle of nondescript frenemies in Guy Fawkes masks emerges from the shadows. They seize Qantaga and with rancorous intent they press him into a grotesquely fin de siècle chair facing the wall. Drawing aside the curtain that hangs before him, they expose a flat, widescreen television. One of them gestures toward it, and suddenly a broadcast appears.

"It's a Christmas Celebration, with Justin and Selena!" intones the announcer.

"That won't be necessary!" protests Qantaga in all haste. "I'll share a bit of what I know! Please-- make it stop...."

The nation that wishes to apply economic pressure has exactly 1 more asset than the covertly operating nation has.

As hastily as it had appeared, the clandestine colloquy evaporated, every participant going his separate way.

It is night
Union Bag, Rolf, Turtleneck, and Cardigan: Whom will you scan (by OO name)?
Turtleneck or Cardigan: Will you flee to the Drop Point?

Qantaga · Post by **Qantaga** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:25 am

Grundbegriff wrote: "It's a Christmas Celebration, with Justin and Selena!" intones the announcer.

"That won't be necessary!" protests Qantaga in all haste. "I'll share a bit of what I know! Please-- make it stop...."

Newcastle · Post by **Newcastle** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:54 am

so since the contours of the game are known...may i suggest

stessier

as tomorrows visit to the waterboarder in chief?

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:10 pm

Newcastle wrote:so since the contours of the game are known

Interesting. What do you mean?

I would have thought people would be interested in the non-voters.

bb2112 · Post by **bb2112** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:36 pm

Chaosraven

Stess has a point.

bb2112 · Post by **bb2112** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:46 pm

Withdraw Chaosraven

Wait, it is still night. Please disregard. No, nothing to see here. Move along.

El Guapo · Post by **El Guapo** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:56 pm

I'm so used to waiting for a night kill.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:45 pm

Revised boilerplate

Grundbegriff wrote: It is night
Union Bag, Rolf, Turtleneck, and Cardigan: Whom will you scan (by OO name)?
Turtleneck or Cardigan: Will you flee to the Drop Point?
Turtleneck or Cardigan: Will you block anyone (by OO name)?

Here's a Solution Template:

Code: Select all

China, with         _____ assets among the captive travelers, is ____________________ to ____________________.
India, with         _____ assets among the captive travelers, is ____________________ to ____________________.
United States, with _____ assets among the captive travelers, is ____________________ to ____________________.
Pakistan, with      _____ assets among the captive travelers, is ____________________ to ____________________.
Russia, with        _____ assets among the captive travelers, is ____________________ to ____________________.

Here's a worksheet (click for PDF!):

Here's how to ask me questions:
Please mark all questions to the mod as follows:

Code: Select all

[color=fuchsia][b] Blah, blah, blah, Ginger. Blah, blah, blah. [/b][/color]

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:06 pm

Turn Two: Morning

Goldman Saxon has 0 correct out of 15.
The Blusterberg Group has 0 correct out of 15.
KIM, Strike Force Umbrage, has 0 correct out of 15.

There are 20 clues in circulation, 2 per player across 10 players.
There are 18 discrete clues and 2 duplicates.
Items revealed through interrogation/torture so far: 1

You've wandered the city streets. You've filed your reports. You've pondered your existential angst.

Now it's time to get back to work.
Boilerplate:

Handlers: Will you submit a Solution?
Everyone: Whom will you interrogate?
Deadline: 9PM EST, Monday, 26 December 2011.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 10:43 pm

No vote registered: Chaosraven, Newcastle.

One or the other.

bb2112 · Post by **bb2112** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:03 pm

Game on!

Chaosraven

Qantaga · Post by **Qantaga** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:16 pm

Unagi wrote:You mean you guys don't know who your OO team is yet?

(just kiddin)

Unagi wrote:It's just a simple interrogation - what's the worry.

interrogate Qantaga to death in the face!

First Unagi implies that he knows his teammates ("just kiddin'" notwithstanding). Then, he goes on to vote for my interrogation. It would seem likely that Unagi is not on my side.

Several people would have impetus to vote to interrogate Unagi:

1. If Unagi's teammates really do know who they are, it would behoove them to vote to interrogate Unagi, so as not to appear to know they are on his team (thus revealing their team roster quite early in the contest).
2. Anyone who thinks they might possibly be on my team (since Unagi did not seem to have any reservations about my team affiliation).
3. Anyone who does not know their own team roster would be interested in spreading the votes evenly this early on, so as not to wake up on Day 3 or 4 and realize their team was hopelessly behind.
4. Even KIM might be interested in testing Unagi to give themselves a 1 clue advantage on both teams, rather than 2 clues from one team and 0 clues from the other.

In reading the thread, Unagi seems to be the least likely to be on my team. Realizing that I could be very well mistaken in that regard, in the spirit of fair play:

Unagi

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:20 pm

News Update from the International Herald Examiner

WSJ wrote: Pakistan's government said Thursday it would demur to the nation's Parliament over whether the country reopens the border to Afghanistan in the wake of the U.S.'s admission of mistakes in a fatal airstrike last month along the Pakistan-Afghanistan border.

The U.S. helicopter strike mistakenly killed 24 Pakistani soldiers. Islamabad retaliated by shutting down North Atlantic Treaty Organization supply lines through Pakistan and said it would lift the blockade only if the U.S. apologized.

The U.S. on Thursday announced findings of a military investigation, which maintained that Pakistani troops were first to fire on a combined Afghan-U.S. commando team conducting an operation near the border.

But the Pentagon also acknowledged that the U.S. made a series of errors during the firefight. U.S. forces on the ground misunderstood a radio transmission, leading them to believe there were no Pakistani forces in the area. They then passed incorrect information on the location of the firefight to the Pakistani military.

...The government's decision to give Parliament the final say on the blockade is part of a broader move, outlined by Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani in unusual comments Thursday, during which he said there was a "conspiracy" to overthrow his government and lashed out at the powerful military....

LAT wrote: The India-China relationship, relatively well managed for years by the two governments, is under growing pressure in the face of insensitivity and nationalism on both sides, India's hyperactive broadcast media and the growing autonomy of Chinese ministries, analysts say.

Irritants that have spurred distrust recently between the two Asian giants include a series of reported incursions along their disputed 2,500-mile border.

In one case, an Indian warship off Vietnam received an apparent Chinese naval radio transmission in July telling it to "leave Chinese waters." In another situation that upset India, an official Chinese brochure used at a November news conference in New Delhi announcing a $400-million investment by a Chinese state-owned heavy equipment manufacturer featured a map that included as part of China the Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh and sections of Kashmir claimed by India.
...

KashmirLife wrote: ...There have been cases when Kashmiri boys studying in Russia married Russian girls, some for green cards and some for real love. Tabaan, a doctor from Srinagar, recalls that back in the 1990s, his friend Shabir went to Russia for MBBS, and married a Russian. After their marriage, they came back to Kashmir and a big reception was arranged by his parents in their Anantnag residence.

But after a year,Tabaan went to meet his friend. That is when he saw his friend’s Russian bride in the paddy fields working with laborers. On inquiring, she showed Tabaan her torture marks. She couldn’t talk to him as she spoke only Russian. Tabaan had another friend who had married a Russian girl and had settled in Kashmir. Tabaan arranged a meet between the two Russian women, and it became clear that she was beaten by her in-laws to work. They would torture her mentally, saying they will get their son remarried. They had snatched her passport as well. After listening to her woes, they arranged her tickets to the Russian Embassy in Delhi, from where she called her parents in Russia who came to her rescue....

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:01 am

Player Name____	First Interrogation____	Second Interrogation____	Torture____
bb2112	---------------	---------------	---------------
Chaosraven	---------------	---------------	---------------
El Guapo	---------------	---------------	---------------
Lassr	---------------	---------------	---------------
Newcastle	---------------	---------------	---------------
Qantaga	Day One	---------------	---------------
Remus West	---------------	---------------	---------------
Scoop20906	---------------	---------------	---------------
stessier	---------------	---------------	---------------
Unagi	---------------	---------------	---------------

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:07 am

Aggregate vote history:
bb2112 to interrogate Chaosraven(1)
Qantaga to interrogate Unagi(1)

Individual vote history:
bb2112: to interrogate Chaosraven
Qantaga: to interrogate Unagi

Currently Targeted:
syntax: soandsoistargeted(withthismanyvotes): bythesepeople
Chaosraven(1): bb2112
Unagi(1): Qantaga

Majority: 6/10
No vote registered: Chaosraven, El Guapo, Lassr, Newcastle, Remus West, Scoop20906, stessier, Unagi

Lassr · Post by **Lassr** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:53 am

interrogate Chaosraven

because he enjoys it.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:53 pm

Qantaga wrote:("just kiddin'" notwithstanding)

Frankly, we are all going to be interrogated, probably a couple times - not sure why you feel the need to actually try and give people some reason based off what was a highly sarcastic comment, nonetheless.

I'm down for a non-participant to have their secrets (or lies) exposed.

interrogate Chaosraven

is deadline tonight on this?

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:55 pm

Unagi wrote:is deadline tonight on this?

'

Nope, but it's Monday.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:32 pm

Unagi wrote:Frankly, we are all going to be interrogated, probably a couple times

If that is true then why are you worried about it. Why not volunteer?
Unagi

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:54 pm

Are you saying I'm worried about it? Or did I?

Why aren't you volunteering?

Why aren't you leading by example?

Why aren't you voting for Chaosraven? !

Why do you not find it odd that Qantaga seemed to think he needed to create reasons for why I should be interrogated?

WHY?

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:00 pm

Unagi wrote:Are you saying I'm worried about it? Or did I?

You certainly imply it by your reaction to Qantaga's post. You went immediately into defensive mode.

Why aren't you volunteering?

I'm not the one who suggested we would all be getting interogated. I don't think we all will.

Why aren't you leading by example?

I am. I am going after the player whose actions I find the most suspicios. Granted, you are also one of the only at all active players but its all I have to go on.

Why aren't you voting for Chaosraven? !

Tried that yesterday.

Why do you not find it odd that Qantaga seemed to think he needed to create reasons for why I should be interrogated?

Not really. You are the one who went after him yesterday. Made it pretty clear that you were not on his team. Why wouldn't he come after you today?

WHY?

because.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:18 pm

Remus West wrote:
Unagi wrote:Are you saying I'm worried about it? Or did I?
You certainly imply it by your reaction to Qantaga's post. You went immediately into defensive mode.

Actually I was humored by his reasoning and how it was based on my statement being sincere - when it was pretty clearly a sarcastic comment.

I'm not the one who suggested we would all be getting interogated. I don't think we all will.

Wow, really? I assume that each and every one of us would get a turn in the hot seat, it was just a matter of time.... Would we all be questioned twice? Probably not everyone, before a solution is turned in, but I bet a good number of people are even questioned twice. I actually would love to hear why you think some people may just never be interrogated at all.

Why aren't you voting for Chaosraven? !
Tried that yesterday.

quitter. That's not like you.

Not really. You are the one who went after him yesterday. Made it pretty clear that you were not on his team. Why wouldn't he come after you today?

I went after Qantaga yesterday?? did I? Could you show me where I did that? And also - could you show me where I actually made it perfectly clear (to him, or to you, or to anyone) that he and I were not on the same team?

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:47 pm

Unagi wrote:It's just a simple interrogation - what's the worry.

interrogate Qantaga to death in the face!

For some reason I thought this was a lot earlier. Shrug. You did not go after him so much as settle on him I suppose. Doesn't matter much to me. I'm fine with targetting you due to your reaction to him suggesting we do so.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 4:17 pm

Unagi

as much as I like being tied down and tickled, I can certainly wait my turn

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:07 pm

Aggregate vote history:
bb2112 to interrogate Chaosraven(1)
Qantaga to interrogate Unagi(1)
Lassr to interrogate Chaosraven(2)
Unagi to interrogate Chaosraven(3)
Remus West to interrogate Unagi(2)
Chaosraven to interrogate Unagi(3)

Individual vote history:
bb2112: to interrogate Chaosraven
Qantaga: to interrogate Unagi
Lassr: to interrogate Chaosraven
Unagi: to interrogate Chaosraven
Remus West: to interrogate Unagi
Chaosraven: to interrogate Unagi

Currently Targeted:
syntax: soandsoistargeted(withthismanyvotes): bythesepeople
Chaosraven(3): bb2112, Lassr, Unagi
Unagi(3): Qantaga, Remus West, Chaosraven

Majority: 6/10
No vote registered: El Guapo, Newcastle, Scoop20906, stessier

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:13 pm

Did Unagi say he was not on your team Qantaga? I certainly didn't read it that way the first time.

I do sorta see what Qantaga is suggesting. That both team's volunteer someone from their team on alternating days for interrogation so one team doesn't get to far ahead. The problem is I doubt everyone has revealed their identities to their teams (certainly hasn't happened on my team).

So, let discuss this. What possible game mechanic/strategy prevents us from revealing ourselves a) in our secret team forums and b) in the main thread at large?

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:19 pm

Scoop20906 wrote: What possible game mechanic/strategy prevents us from revealing ourselves a) in our secret team forums and b) in the main thread at large?

Dismemberment, a subsequent death, and the end of the world as we know it. Can't see a downside really.

Unagi