Octopus Overlords

As long as the company in charge is a non-profit with heavy oversight, I suppose it could be ok. I don't have much confidence in this administration to do everything on the up-and-up, though.

El Guapo wrote:

LordMortis wrote:

El Guapo wrote:Just the fact that people don't like his style makes it a tough choice between him and Trump makes me think that we should just blow up the planet and get it over with. There's no intelligent life here worth saving.

And you may as well be rip making everything about Trump into something about Clinton or Obama when you post this. It's not a question of if you don't like Franken then you must like Trump better. Quite frankly, you are exemplifying the exact kind of sophistry that Fanken employs that I hate so much. Franken inspires this sort of dishonest discussion. You love it. I hate it.

Fitzy wrote:I've watched Franken speak. I've seen him in committees.

I despise Trump. I think he is the worst president we've had.

I'd have a hard time choosing between Trump and Franken.

It's not about style. I apologize if my comment came across that way. I meant to say that I've seen him enough to get a sense of who he is beyond the national media coverage.

I was living in Minnesota in 2008. I saw his campaign. I met the man. I've watched him many more times than I want in committee meetings (I wasn't watching for him, he's just on a committee I watch for other reasons). It took me many more years and a "friendship" with a narcissist to understand the problem with Franken.

Al Franken is a narcissist. He hides it better than Trump. He is, in his own way, more polished than Trump. But underneath he is a narcissist. If you watch enough of his committee meetings and you have been affected by a narcissist you can see it pretty easily.

Al Franken should be nowhere near the presidency. Period. I don't necessarily regret my vote for him, he's ok in the Senate.

Would he be better than Trump? Sure, if you agree with his policies there's no question.

Would he be as stupid as Trump? Nope. I'm not sure that's possible.

He would be as dangerous as Trump. Maybe worse since he does cover it well. edit - Eh. This is unfair. Trump is degenerating fast and has more problems than just his narcissism.

So yeah, if I lived in a place where it mattered, I would still hesitate for a long time before touching the Franken vote. I suspect I'd vote third party. You're safe though. I live in Maryland and have no foreseeable movement into a "purple" state by 2020.

Leave him where he is. If you need a Minnesotan to take down Trump, try Klobuchar.

If the best the Democrats can do in 2020 is "At least he's not Trump" then I will believe we are screwed as a country. And that's all Franken is to me.

Fitzy wrote:

El Guapo wrote:

LordMortis wrote:

El Guapo wrote:Just the fact that people don't like his style makes it a tough choice between him and Trump makes me think that we should just blow up the planet and get it over with. There's no intelligent life here worth saving.

And you may as well be rip making everything about Trump into something about Clinton or Obama when you post this. It's not a question of if you don't like Franken then you must like Trump better. Quite frankly, you are exemplifying the exact kind of sophistry that Fanken employs that I hate so much. Franken inspires this sort of dishonest discussion. You love it. I hate it.

Fitzy wrote:I've watched Franken speak. I've seen him in committees.

I despise Trump. I think he is the worst president we've had.

I'd have a hard time choosing between Trump and Franken.

It's not about style. I apologize if my comment came across that way. I meant to say that I've seen him enough to get a sense of who he is beyond the national media coverage.

I was living in Minnesota in 2008. I saw his campaign. I met the man. I've watched him many more times than I want in committee meetings (I wasn't watching for him, he's just on a committee I watch for other reasons). It took me many more years and a "friendship" with a narcissist to understand the problem with Franken.

Al Franken is a narcissist. He hides it better than Trump. He is, in his own way, more polished than Trump. But underneath he is a narcissist. If you watch enough of his committee meetings and you have been affected by a narcissist you can see it pretty easily.

Al Franken should be nowhere near the presidency. Period. I don't necessarily regret my vote for him, he's ok in the Senate.

Would he be better than Trump? Sure, if you agree with his policies there's no question.

Would he be as stupid as Trump? Nope. I'm not sure that's possible.

He would be as dangerous as Trump. Maybe worse since he does cover it well. edit - Eh. This is unfair. Trump is degenerating fast and has more problems than just his narcissism.

So yeah, if I lived in a place where it mattered, I would still hesitate for a long time before touching the Franken vote. I suspect I'd vote third party. You're safe though. I live in Maryland and have no foreseeable movement into a "purple" state by 2020.

Leave him where he is. If you need a Minnesotan to take down Trump, try Klobuchar.

If the best the Democrats can do in 2020 is "At least he's not Trump" then I will believe we are screwed as a country. And that's all Franken is to me.

What precisely do you think President Franken would do that would be more dangerous than Trump?

Fitzy wrote:
Al Franken is a narcissist. He hides it better than Trump. He is, in his own way, more polished than Trump. But underneath he is a narcissist.

Isn't anybody who looks in the mirror and sees a president looking back a narcissist?

Fitzy wrote:
It's not about style. I apologize if my comment came across that way. I meant to say that I've seen him enough to get a sense of who he is beyond the national media coverage.

And I would say you've not seen enough of him. Franken is capable of humility. Trump is not.

And sadly, "at least he's not Trump" is going to be the rallying cry if the dems can't get their act together by 2020.

Kraken wrote:

Fitzy wrote:Al Franken is a narcissist. He hides it better than Trump. He is, in his own way, more polished than Trump. But underneath he is a narcissist.

Isn't anybody who looks in the mirror and sees a president looking back a narcissist?

No. Narcissism and ambition don't necessarily go hand-in-hand.

Max Peck wrote:

Kraken wrote:

Fitzy wrote:Al Franken is a narcissist. He hides it better than Trump. He is, in his own way, more polished than Trump. But underneath he is a narcissist.

Isn't anybody who looks in the mirror and sees a president looking back a narcissist?

No. Narcissism and ambition don't necessarily go hand-in-hand.

But they often go hand in glove.*


*I'm just looking for a sound bite today.

Kind of odd that someone who is so narcissistic that that quality by itself appears to make him more dangerous than Trump has no apparent interest in seeking the most powerful office in the country.

I think it's hilarious that our search for a candidate naturally leads to wondering where we'll find "another Obama."

In 2008 Obama seemed like a risk that we could take only because Bush's war and Bush's economy had left the Republicans in such a hole. He was inspiring to liberals, but at the time he was by no means a shoe-in: he was young, untested, black, and a former Muslim--all qualities that threatened to alienate a certain kind of white potential Democrat. He made missteps during the primary, and at times even plenty of Democrats were willing to write him off as too much of a risk. He certainly didn't emerge onto the stage as the candidate everyone knew was the right one.

In the end, of course, Obama proved to be a wiser and better and more thoughtful leader than we deserved, but there was no way to know that in 2008.

Holman wrote:I think it's hilarious that our search for a candidate naturally leads to wondering where we'll find "another Obama."

In 2008 Obama seemed like a risk that we could take only because Bush's war and Bush's economy had left the Republicans in such a hole. He was inspiring to liberals, but at the time he was by no means a shoe-in: he was young, untested, black, and a former Muslim--

Not to mention he was born in Kenya.

Here you go.



You are welcome.

It's not every morning that you get both the Pope and Dalai Lama angry-tweeting about your actions...

@Pontifex

We must never forget that the natural environment is a collective good, the patrimony of all humanity and the responsibility of everyone.

@DalaiLama

Protecting our environment is not a luxury we can choose to enjoy, but a simple matter of survival.

Are they going into a bar?

gilraen wrote:

Ralph-Wiggum wrote:So the first part of Trump's infrastructure plan is to privatize air traffic control. Am I bonkers or is that an insanely terrible idea?

It's not a new idea...Canada, Australia and other major countries have a privatized system with government oversight, seems to work okay. Not to say that there isn't a potential for the US to royally screw it up, but in theory it's not necessarily a "Trumpian" thing.

So "It works for Canada" is now a valid argument for new US federal policy? That'll be interesting.

Holman wrote:In the end, of course, Obama proved to be a wiser and better and more thoughtful leader than we deserved, but there was no way to know that in 2008.

I did (see Fireball's sig), but I watched a lot of Obama interviews during his Illinois Senate race.

tgb wrote:

Zarathud wrote:If the Democrats are going for their Celebrity President, go all the way and draft Oprah.

I know you're joking, but that's not the worst idea I've heard.

I am, but I'm also not.

If we're waiting on Oprah, we're fucked. If Oprah couldn't fix it, we're irretrievably fucked.

El Guapo wrote:

Fitzy wrote:
He would be as dangerous as Trump. Maybe worse since he does cover it well. edit - Eh. This is unfair. Trump is degenerating fast and has more problems than just his narcissism.

What precisely do you think President Franken would do that would be more dangerous than Trump?

Nowhere. That's why I went back and said I was unfair (before you responded). I was wrong.

I was annoyed by this reaction I keep seeing where "anything is better than Trump". That's how we got Trump to begin with! So I over reacted.

I'm sorry you like Franken. That's your right as an American. Just like it's mine to see him as a narcissistic ass. They are both opinions. It's not impossible I'm wrong, but I don't think I am. If I see evidence otherwise I'd change my opinion. Given the overwhelming crap I've seen from Franken, it would take a bit. Franken talks down to people he sees as his inferior, which is just about everyone. He uses humor well. But he uses at as a weapon to cut people down.

I believe he could easily get us into a situation he could not get us out of. I think he would be incapable of backing down from a major mistake. All presidents have to be able to step away. Trump is a huge demonstration of why this inability is dangerous.

I am unwilling to accept "He's not Trump." I did it last year. I voted for Clinton because she wasn't Trump. I held my nose because I didn't know what else to do. I don't want that again. Franken terrifies me. I don't think I have a big enough nose holder.

Holman wrote:he was ... a former Muslim

No, he wasn't.

Claim: Obama takes great care to conceal the fact that he is a Muslim. He is quick to point out that, “He was once a Muslim, but that he also attended Catholic school.” Obama’s political handlers are attempting to make it appear that he is not a radical.

Barack Obama never stated that he “was once a Muslim” (radical or otherwise), so his “handlers” have nothing to “conceal.” Obama communications director Robert Gibbs noted that “Senator Obama has never been a Muslim. As a six-year-old in Catholic school, he studied the catechism.” Barack Obama has been associated with the United Church of Christ since the mid-1980s, describes himself as a Christian, and says that he is “rooted in the Christian tradition.”

That GOP propaganda must be hard to shake, if people are still citing "facts" that were debunked a decade past.

I'm guessing Holman was being sarcastic.

hepcat wrote:I'm guessing Holman was being sarcastic.

The rest of his commentary seemed pretty straight forward, so the former-Muslim canard didn't strike me as sarcastic. But it's possible I misread the tone of his entire post. It happens.

LawBeefaroni wrote:

gilraen wrote:

Ralph-Wiggum wrote:So the first part of Trump's infrastructure plan is to privatize air traffic control. Am I bonkers or is that an insanely terrible idea?

It's not a new idea...Canada, Australia and other major countries have a privatized system with government oversight, seems to work okay. Not to say that there isn't a potential for the US to royally screw it up, but in theory it's not necessarily a "Trumpian" thing.

So "It works for Canada" is now a valid argument for new US federal policy? That'll be interesting.

You have to admit, it's slightly better than "It failed miserably for Canada."

Max Peck wrote:

hepcat wrote:I'm guessing Holman was being sarcastic.

The rest of his commentary seemed pretty straight forward, so the former-Muslim canard didn't strike me as sarcastic. But it's possible I misread the tone of his entire post. It happens.

Sorry--I should have been clearer about that. I wasn't going for sarcasm so much as shorthand for the suspicions thrown at the wall about him.

Fitzy wrote:

El Guapo wrote:

Fitzy wrote:
He would be as dangerous as Trump. Maybe worse since he does cover it well. edit - Eh. This is unfair. Trump is degenerating fast and has more problems than just his narcissism.

What precisely do you think President Franken would do that would be more dangerous than Trump?

Nowhere. That's why I went back and said I was unfair (before you responded). I was wrong.

I was annoyed by this reaction I keep seeing where "anything is better than Trump". That's how we got Trump to begin with! So I over reacted.

I'm sorry you like Franken. That's your right as an American. Just like it's mine to see him as a narcissistic ass. They are both opinions. It's not impossible I'm wrong, but I don't think I am. If I see evidence otherwise I'd change my opinion. Given the overwhelming crap I've seen from Franken, it would take a bit. Franken talks down to people he sees as his inferior, which is just about everyone. He uses humor well. But he uses at as a weapon to cut people down.

I believe he could easily get us into a situation he could not get us out of. I think he would be incapable of backing down from a major mistake. All presidents have to be able to step away. Trump is a huge demonstration of why this inability is dangerous.

I am unwilling to accept "He's not Trump." I did it last year. I voted for Clinton because she wasn't Trump. I held my nose because I didn't know what else to do. I don't want that again. Franken terrifies me. I don't think I have a big enough nose holder.

FWIW I'm not arguing with you, I'm genuinely curious about the reasons why Franken (who generally seems like a normal center-left guy policy-wise) would be even in the same ballpark as Trump (such that you are "terrified" of him and would probably vote third party even if living in a state where it mattered). So far what I've heard is that he talks down to people at hearings. And I guess that because he does that he might not be willing to revisit major mistakes.

I'm just confused because this seems thin as is as a reason to be terrified of a presidential candidate, so I'm curious if there's more (or examples, or whatnot).

Obviously he's a tom davis fan.

Zarathud wrote: If Oprah couldn't fix it, we're irretrievably fucked.

Who knew the answer to ISIS was just to give them each a new car?

El Guapo wrote:

Fitzy wrote:
Nowhere. That's why I went back and said I was unfair (before you responded). I was wrong.

I was annoyed by this reaction I keep seeing where "anything is better than Trump". That's how we got Trump to begin with! So I over reacted.

I'm sorry you like Franken. That's your right as an American. Just like it's mine to see him as a narcissistic ass. They are both opinions. It's not impossible I'm wrong, but I don't think I am. If I see evidence otherwise I'd change my opinion. Given the overwhelming crap I've seen from Franken, it would take a bit. Franken talks down to people he sees as his inferior, which is just about everyone. He uses humor well. But he uses at as a weapon to cut people down.

I believe he could easily get us into a situation he could not get us out of. I think he would be incapable of backing down from a major mistake. All presidents have to be able to step away. Trump is a huge demonstration of why this inability is dangerous.

I am unwilling to accept "He's not Trump." I did it last year. I voted for Clinton because she wasn't Trump. I held my nose because I didn't know what else to do. I don't want that again. Franken terrifies me. I don't think I have a big enough nose holder.

FWIW I'm not arguing with you, I'm genuinely curious about the reasons why Franken (who generally seems like a normal center-left guy policy-wise) would be even in the same ballpark as Trump (such that you are "terrified" of him and would probably vote third party even if living in a state where it mattered). So far what I've heard is that he talks down to people at hearings. And I guess that because he does that he might not be willing to revisit major mistakes.

I'm just confused because this seems thin as is as a reason to be terrified of a presidential candidate, so I'm curious if there's more (or examples, or whatnot).

I am filtering Franken through my own experiences. What terrifies me is narcissism in our leaders. In our president? That's horrific. As, I think we are seeing now. So I suppose it difficult to see without the same experiences.

As far as not being willing to change your mind as a leader, see the Iraq War. I don't believe George W. Bush was a narcissist. However, Cheney? Yeah. Big time. I wonder how much deeper we'd have been in with President Cheney. How much better might we have been with a president both intelligent enough to realize a mistake had been made and strong enough to take the heat for stepping back? I wonder if any president could have.

The more I study the Bill Clinton years, the more I think our problems today can be traced to him. However, I'll give him credit. When he saw the way things were moving after the '94 election he changed. He adapted to the situation. If he'd stood his ground on every issue, we'd still be in a government shutdown. That's where I see Franken. As a person who will hold the line no matter what the cost and no matter how small the issue. If it's his, he'll hold it.

For me narcissism is a need to be right. Sure, we all have tendencies that way. But for people like Trump (and Franken in my opinion) its more. It's a literal refusal to be wrong. It's always someone elses fault. They always have all the answers because they are always right. They use people and they use them up. I see it a lot when I watch Franken in his committee on Indian Affairs. He goes off on tangents on his personal beliefs that have nothing to do with Indian Affairs. He attacks people on the other side for odd things. Then he will suddenly recall where he is and pop back almost on target. It is scary to see in my opinion.

Trump is classic. I don't think many people disagree with the idea that he's narcissistic. I think some would argue the degree to which that is harmful.

Here's how I see it though. In the end, the narcissist will always do what he or she perceives as best for themselves, even to the point of leaving badly damaged people behind. It's all about being worshiped. For Trump, that is people who think he is the greatest. For Franken, that's people who think he is funny.

Franken hides this well. He's a comedian. I think some people see him as self-depreciating. I see it more as him laughing at people who think he could be wrong.

There are very few people who set this narcissistic vibe off for me. Trump is probably the worst of the people I don't know personally. Franken isn't far off. Cheney did it.

So yeah, my issues are as seen through my own filters, which include far too much personal experience with a narcissist.

It's entirely possible I'm wrong about Franken. He might be a great guy. But his behavior triggers that previous experience and makes me highly leery. And yes. That does terrify me. I'm hopeful Trump is somehow removed from office before he (Trump) can do real, serious, lasting damage along the lines of the fall of the Roman Empire. The last thing I think we need is a Democrat with some of the same traits.

PS

Also Franken is not center-left. He is pure left. He holds hands with Warren and Sanders (neither of whom I want as president, though for partially different reasons than Franken).

Wow, we have vastly different ideas of what constitutes narcissism if you think Franken is even a 100th as bad as Trump in that area.

Franken's not a Sanders guy - he was an early and prominent Clinton supporter, having endorsed her as far back as November 2014. He's got some progressive bona fides, but his politics are pretty similar to Clinton's. There may be some similarity to Warren, who kind of straddles the progressive / center-left line somewhat.

FWIW I agree that narcissism and refusal to admit mistakes are a problem in a president, although in general it seems like you are reading a ton into snide committee remarks

Fitzy wrote:
Also Franken is not center-left. He is pure left. He holds hands with Warren and Sanders (neither of whom I want as president, though for partially different reasons than Franken).

Oooh, I'd happily take a President Warren. Or President Klobuchar. Or Gillibrand. Warren was awesome on Pod Save America last week. As a country we've slid so far right than our center left would be center right to right elsewhere.

I think we have vastly different ideas of where the center is if people think Warren and Franken can even find it.

hepcat wrote:Wow, we have vastly different ideas of what constitutes narcissism if you think Franken is even a 100th as bad as Trump in that area.

Trump was born rich. He never had to hide his narcissism. He revels in it.

Franken has enough awareness to hide his. Maybe that's enough to technically mean he's not a narcissist, but I'm sticking with my amateur diagnosis.

And yes. I regret saying Franken is as bad as Trump. It was a kneejerk reaction to disliking him. Exactly what I accused people of doing with the everything Trump does is bad stuff. I'm a hypocrite.

If it came down to it, if I moved back to Colorado and it was Trump vs Franken, I'd probably shove Vaseline up my nose and find one of those giant novelty clothespins for my nose and vote for Franken.

Fitzy wrote:I think we have vastly different ideas of where the center is if people think Warren and Franken can even find it.

Yes, I'd guess we do. If you put Warren or Franken or Sanders into a European Parliament, they wouldn't even be close to the farthest left member of the chamber.

gbasden wrote:

Fitzy wrote:I think we have vastly different ideas of where the center is if people think Warren and Franken can even find it.

Yes, I'd guess we do. If you put Warren or Franken or Sanders into a European Parliament, they wouldn't even be close to the farthest left member of the chamber.

Is that supposed to convince someone they are center? They aren't even the center of the Democrat party.

Neither side wants to hear it but I will give you three names from each party that are center of the electorate.

From the Democrat Party:

Joe Donnelly
Heidi Heitkamp
Joe Manchin

From the Republican Party:

Rand Paul
Ben Sasse
Jeff Flake

Keep in mind, you have to worry about anyone who wants the job.

Rip wrote:

gbasden wrote:

Fitzy wrote:I think we have vastly different ideas of where the center is if people think Warren and Franken can even find it.

Yes, I'd guess we do. If you put Warren or Franken or Sanders into a European Parliament, they wouldn't even be close to the farthest left member of the chamber.

Is that supposed to convince someone they are center? They aren't even the center of the Democrat party.

Neither side wants to hear it but I will give you three names from each party that are center of the electorate.

From the Democrat Party:

Joe Donnelly
Heidi Heitkamp
Joe Manchin

From the Republican Party:

Rand Paul
Ben Sasse
Jeff Flake

I wouldn't characterize Rand Paul as a centrist at all. He's a Libertarian with GOP roots. That's not a centrist.

Divisiveness is the policy and fault of Republican leadership since Newt Gingrich.

Bill Clinton was responsible only because as a centrist, free trade Democrats he had the audacity to be elected President, ending the Golden Republican Era of Reagan. President George H.W. Bush was literally and figuratively a reconnection with his father. Jeb promised the same -- except he had a charisma vacuum and failed to launch.

Obama was a centrist Democrat, and the Republicans hated him because he was black. Franken's comedy background would feed the fire, just like Bernie's socialism.

The 2020 election will repeat the same themes -- who can capture the Reagan Democrats who voted for Clinton and Obama. Trump sold them an outdated vision of the Reagan Era, but it comes with all the baggage (with a side of Putin and self-indulgent twitter).

Joe could sell the message, but he's too old to see the Promised Land. The Democrats need a messenger who can reach the audience without inflaming the crazy dumpster fires when he ruins them. Give the GOP no more rallying cries.

Rip wrote:
Neither side wants to hear it but I will give you three names from each party that are center of the electorate.

From the Democrat Party:

Joe Donnelly
Heidi Heitkamp
Joe Manchin

From the Republican Party:

Rand Paul
Ben Sasse
Jeff Flake

You're a funny, funny man. Heitkamp is very moderate, which is fine. I'd vote for her over a Republican, but she's on the right of most Democrats. Donnelly is even more right than she is, especially on guns and the right to abortion. Manchin is about the most rightward Democrat in national office. On the other side, Rand is a libertarian in an evangelical party and Sasse is a never-Trumper in a party that has completely caved to the man. Flake might be the only person on your list that could possibly be in the center of his party.

Rip thinking that an extreme libertarian like Rand Paul is a "moderate" shows how deep the sickness has become.

Lindsey Graham and John McCain are the sane Republicans. Jeff Sessions was found unfit to be a judge, but can now be America's prosecutor. It's a mad world.

Center of the electorate which is true for everyone on that list but Paul.

Edit: Also agree that calling Paul a moderate is dubious at best.

malchior wrote:Center of the electorate which is true for everyone on that list but Paul.

Edit: Also agree that calling Paul a moderate is dubious at best.

You really think Manchin is in the center of the Democratic party? He's strongly pro-life, he's voted to prevent the EPA from regulating greenhouse gases, he wants to defund Planned Parenthood, he supports Keystone XL, he's pushed to weaken environmental laws against strip mining - the dude even voted to confirm Sessions. I can see no way he's in line with the views of most Democrats. The same goes to a lesser degree for Donnelly. And Sasse certainly doesn't seem to be in line with the viewpoints of the average Republican these days, either. What am I missing?

gbasden wrote:

malchior wrote:Center of the electorate which is true for everyone on that list but Paul.

Edit: Also agree that calling Paul a moderate is dubious at best.

You really think Manchin is in the center of the Democratic party? He's strongly pro-life, he's voted to prevent the EPA from regulating greenhouse gases, he wants to defund Planned Parenthood, he supports Keystone XL, he's pushed to weaken environmental laws against strip mining - the dude even voted to confirm Sessions. I can see no way he's in line with the views of most Democrats. The same goes to a lesser degree for Donnelly. And Sasse certainly doesn't seem to be in line with the viewpoints of the average Republican these days, either. What am I missing?

The middle between left and right. Between Democrat and Republican. Not the center of each party.

Also he forgot Collins. I'd say she's more center than any of the Republicans on that list.