Octopus Overlords

stimpy wrote:No. And to use your logic, you cant catch covid from someone who doesnt have it either. What's your point?

That one is a contagious disease that is easily transmitted to others, and the other is not?

stimpy wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:50 pm

Alefroth wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:44 pm

stimpy wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:07 pm Let me be clear that I wear a mask and practice all the suggestions of social distancing and sanitizing.
But whenever I hear that people are waiting on the government to fix this for us, all I can think of is how does that happen when stuff like this is out there for anti-maskers to point to?

Let me know when the mask lobby is as powerful as the tobacco lobby.

Can I catch second hand smoke from a non-smoker?

No. And to use your logic, you cant catch covid from someone who doesnt have it either. What's your point?

That your meme is moronic. But you probably know that by now.

Holman wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:45 pm Light up a cigarette on an airplane and you'll find out if the government has ever done anything to make someone stop smoking.

The meme is ridiculous.

That doesnt stop anyone from smoking.
It delays it.

Alefroth wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:12 pm

stimpy wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:50 pm

Alefroth wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:44 pm

stimpy wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:07 pm Let me be clear that I wear a mask and practice all the suggestions of social distancing and sanitizing.
But whenever I hear that people are waiting on the government to fix this for us, all I can think of is how does that happen when stuff like this is out there for anti-maskers to point to?

Let me know when the mask lobby is as powerful as the tobacco lobby.

Can I catch second hand smoke from a non-smoker?

No. And to use your logic, you cant catch covid from someone who doesnt have it either. What's your point?

That your meme is moronic. But you probably know that by now.

Not my meme, cochise.

stimpy wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:54 pm Not my meme, cochise.

You're just asking questions?

RunningMn9 wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:46 pm

stimpy wrote:No. And to use your logic, you cant catch covid from someone who doesnt have it either. What's your point?

That one is a contagious disease that is easily transmitted to others, and the other is not?

Alefroth made the connection of whether non smokers could pass on second hand smoke.
That's as stupid as saying you can catch covid from someone who doesnt have it.

stimpy wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:54 pm

Alefroth wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:12 pm

stimpy wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:50 pm

Alefroth wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:44 pm

stimpy wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:07 pm Let me be clear that I wear a mask and practice all the suggestions of social distancing and sanitizing.
But whenever I hear that people are waiting on the government to fix this for us, all I can think of is how does that happen when stuff like this is out there for anti-maskers to point to?

Let me know when the mask lobby is as powerful as the tobacco lobby.

Can I catch second hand smoke from a non-smoker?

No. And to use your logic, you cant catch covid from someone who doesnt have it either. What's your point?

That your meme is moronic. But you probably know that by now.

Not my meme, cochise.

Cool.

Holman wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:55 pm

stimpy wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:54 pm Not my meme, cochise.

You're just asking questions?

Initially I was making a point about how some are never going to listen to government madates.
Seat belts dont save live.
Helmets are stupid. Etc.

But of course it devolves into trying to bash whatever I post.
Eh.

stimpy wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:58 pm

Holman wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:55 pm

stimpy wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:54 pm Not my meme, cochise.

You're just asking questions?

Initially I was making a point about how some are never going to listen to government madates.
Seat belts dont save live.
Helmets are stupid. Etc.

But of course it devolves into trying to bash whatever I post.
Eh.

Fair enough. Sorry if I misread you. I guess people are conditioned to expect a certain type of post from you.

Most, if not all, of the Trump supporters I know wear masks when they go into a store. Because the Democratic governor, that they didn't vote for and don't agree with, told them to do it. Why would they do this? Because while they may bitch about it on social media, they're not the type to get in a shouting match with someone over it in real life. Most people are like that, and we have to recognize that.

I roll my eyes when I see the media breathlessly talking about whether Biden should impose a mask mandate, and what this will cost politically, blah blah blah. It's a ridiculous argument. Most people will follow government guidelines. Period. I will say that again. Most people will follow government guidelines.

So, YK, you ask. Why are so many people not taking this shit seriously? See above. They're following government guidelines. Change the guidelines, change the behavior. You're not going to get everyone, but we're going for "most" here.

We're going to see a measurable difference in public behavior towards Covid when Biden gets in office. That is my prediction. Because most people are not lunatics. Most people just do what the government tells them to do, even when they didn't vote for the guy.

stimpy wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:52 pm

Blackhawk wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:40 pm

stimpy wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:25 pm people that will point to facts like the one I posted.

It's a meme, and an easily disproven one, not a fact.

Or not.....
https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statis ... nonsmokers.

The numbers can be facts, and the conclusions reached using them still be false. In this case it is a false equivalency. Cigarettes don't have their deadly effects after a single exposure. If second hand smoke immediately sickened a meaningful number of the people that breathed it after only a single exposure, and killed a significant portion of them, plus spread to their friends, family, and coworkers, you can be pretty confident that the laws about cigarettes would be different.

You can't compare the two and draw conclusions based on similarity when the two aren't even remotely similar.

That meme is so dumb it could only be taken seriously by someone who already made up their mind.

I've gotten tickets for driving my car with tinted windows, specifically for having the front driver side window and passenger side window tinted. I've been stopped for seatbelt violations. I've had motorcycle riding friends complain to me about having to wear helmets. Those are just driving related government regulations for public safety. The are many laws regarding a person's behavior as it affects public safety.

This mask thing is just pandemic related. It's not even really a push to fix a long standing problem that's been overlooked in the past. It's a response to a current situation that is relevant to everyone. Social distancing and wearing a mask shouldn't be an issue and wouldn't be an issue except for one thing- politics. Someone made it political and now ALL the people who want to be loyal to those political views won't cooperate.

The bans on smoking are proof that it's not a lost cause and getting people to alter their behavior can be done. I grew up in a home where my parents didn't smoke, yet we had multiple ashtrays around the house and they got a lot of use. That's because visitors, family or friends, commonly smoked. Then the anti-smoking push happened and next thing you know, no one visiting smoked anymore. They knew not to even bother asking if they could before long. In my opinion the obvious difference between then and now is back then no one politicized smoking. Smokers complained because they were addicted and so they wanted sympathy "I don't want to smoke but I have to smoke" but no one cared. Smoke at home. I see masks the same way. Stay home and rejoice in masklessness. You want to mingle with the public? Wear one.

My niece works at Mercy Hospital in Muskegon, MI. Today she posted these two news items.

Muskegon in "desperate straits" as Covid-19 deaths, health care worker cases soar

and

Employees describe "chaos," fear, and tears at Mercy Health

I can only imagine what she's going through, and yet I know that there are stories like this literally everywhere now. Please read them.

Trump coronavirus adviser Scott Atlas urges Michigan to 'rise up' against new Covid-19 measures

White House coronavirus task force member Dr. Scott Atlas criticized Michigan's new Covid-19 restrictions in a tweet shortly after they were announced Sunday evening, urging people to "rise up" against the new public health measures.
"The only way this stops is if people rise up," Atlas said. "You get what you accept

Skinypupy wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:09 pm This thread is heartbreaking.

https://mobile.twitter.com/JodiDoering/ ... 9555292162

I didn't need to go to bed reading that. How horrid.

Also one of my cousins, who works in a prison system, is now having his second bout with COVID and yet we have an uncle who still refuses to wear a mask whenever he can get away with it.

Daehawk wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 10:41 pm Trump coronavirus adviser Scott Atlas urges Michigan to 'rise up' against new Covid-19 measures

White House coronavirus task force member Dr. Scott Atlas criticized Michigan's new Covid-19 restrictions in a tweet shortly after they were announced Sunday evening, urging people to "rise up" against the new public health measures.
"The only way this stops is if people rise up," Atlas said. "You get what you accept

Heh. When my sister just posted the new rules on FB, I replied with "too little, too late." See my last post about Muskegon's situation. But go ahead a rise up, Michiganders. Maybe wave some rifles around for good measure.

WHOO!

Skinypupy wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:09 pm This thread is heartbreaking.

https://mobile.twitter.com/JodiDoering/ ... 9555292162

The comments make me ill.

Another with no public release of data yet, but the press release results are even better than Pfizer's. And this one doesn't require ultra-cold storage:

Moderna vaccine is 95% effective in early results, and also shown to prevent severe cases.

Yeah, I still want more details, but it certainly looks hopeful.

gbasden wrote:

Skinypupy wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:09 pm This thread is heartbreaking.

https://mobile.twitter.com/JodiDoering/ ... 9555292162

The comments make me ill.

There is just something about this nurse from SD that isn’t ringing true for me, I’m not sure what it is. Like, I’m getting that it sucks monkey balls to be a nurse anywhere right now, but I’m finding the behavior of these dying patients to not be believable.

RunningMn9 wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:23 amI’m finding the behavior of these dying patients to not be believable.

I'm finding the general attitude of a lot of people in denying COVID to be pretty unbelievable.

I checked again, though, and I don't think this person gives a number - just that these are the ones that stand out. It could be 1% of the COVID patients or fewer, not a substantial number. I can easily believe a small percentage of people being hospitalized are refusing to accept the cause.

I can believe it. My grandmother to her dying breath insisted she wasn't in a hospice for pancreatic cancer, but in a hotel on vacation.

RunningMn9 wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:23 am

gbasden wrote:

Skinypupy wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:09 pm This thread is heartbreaking.

https://mobile.twitter.com/JodiDoering/ ... 9555292162

The comments make me ill.

There is just something about this nurse from SD that isn’t ringing true for me, I’m not sure what it is. Like, I’m getting that it sucks monkey balls to be a nurse anywhere right now, but I’m finding the behavior of these dying patients to not be believable.

I'll be generous and go with exaggeration for effect.

We've had ICU shifts ask to stay an extra hour or two on their own time (after grueling multiday extended shifts) just to sit and hold hands with dying patients when no one else was allowed in. Haven't heard a single story of a patient getting all political before being intubated or decrying fake news on their deathbed. Just like there are few athiests in foxholes there are likely few anti-science crusaders in the ICU.

RunningMn9 wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:23 am There is just something about this nurse from SD that isn’t ringing true for me, I’m not sure what it is. Like, I’m getting that it sucks monkey balls to be a nurse anywhere right now, but I’m finding the behavior of these dying patients to not be believable.

https://twitter.com/NewDay/status/1328319845012824065

A South Dakota ER nurse @JodiDoering
says her Covid-19 patients often “don’t want to believe that Covid is real.”

“Their last dying words are, ‘This can’t be happening. It’s not real.’ And when they should be... Facetiming their families, they’re filled with anger and hatred.”

When faced with the end of life there can be a bit of denial and anger. I'm not surprised at some of the reactions and more saddened by it, saving my anger for the people who have led us to the shitshow we are seeing today.

Elon Musk will forever be "Space Karen" to me from now on.

https://twitter.com/emmabell42/status/1 ... 9765769218

Rapid antigen tests trade sensitivity for speed. They return a result in <30 minutes, but can only detect COVID-19 when you're absolutely riddled with it. What's bogus is that Space Karen didn't read up on the test before complaining to his millions of followers.

Watching him get dragged by various public health, infectious disease and epidemiology experts all weekend was a nice break.

Smoove_B wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:02 pm Elon Musk will forever be "Space Karen" to me from now on.

It is a remarkably apt nickname for him.

Paingod wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:44 am

RunningMn9 wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:23 amI’m finding the behavior of these dying patients to not be believable.

I'm finding the general attitude of a lot of people in denying COVID to be pretty unbelievable.

I checked again, though, and I don't think this person gives a number - just that these are the ones that stand out. It could be 1% of the COVID patients or fewer, not a substantial number. I can easily believe a small percentage of people being hospitalized are refusing to accept the cause.

I don't know the case load but "ones" just implies that it is not unique. It doesn't mean ubiquitous, just enough to be more than a single person sticking out. I can't speak to the reality of a tweet but I don't find it to be unfathomable. I have relatives in denial and denial was probably the largest single factor to drive me off Facebook, even as they know people falling victim. I don't know how people dying of this end up thinking from their fog and I hope not find out first hand.

Don't know if this was mentioned, but since we discussed how Pfizer' got it's effectiveness numbers:

Moderna said preliminary phase three trial data shows its coronavirus vaccine is more than 94% effective in preventing Covid-19 — a result CEO Stephane Bancel called a “game changer.”

The analysis evaluated 95 confirmed Covid-19 infections among the trial’s 30,000 participants. Moderna, which developed its vaccine in collaboration with the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, said 90 cases of Covid-19 were observed in the placebo group versus five cases observed in the group that received its two-dose vaccine. That resulted in an estimated vaccine efficacy of 94.5%, it said.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/16/moderna ... ctive.html

And it doesn't need to be as cold.

Looking forward to reading about how much stock the CEO of Moderna magically sold today on the news - sales that were set up back in August.

Again, science by press release. I'll wait until the people waaaaay smarter than I am get to see the actual study data and can tell us whether or not we can be get excited.

The one thing that's circulating now among my peers that's quite concerning is that the news of the vaccines is undermining the current advice (wear a mask, maintain distance, lower contact time, etc...) as people are going to mistakenly believe the vaccine is right around the corner and will be readily available - so do whatever you want.

The analysis I saw over the weekend pointed out that there's not enough of the Pfizer vaccine to cover all the medical staff in the United States - assuming they could all magically be vaccinated quickly and easily. The idea that the general public is going to be vaccinated any time soon needs to be clarified and communicated.

$iljanus wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:01 pm When faced with the end of life there can be a bit of denial and anger. I'm not surprised at some of the reactions and more saddened by it, saving my anger for the people who have led us to the shitshow we are seeing today.

The ones denying COVID on their deathbeds are the people that led us here.

This is going to hit the R states harder then the D ones. Maybe this slap in the face is what those people need to get back to effing reality.

Smoove_B wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:42 pm

The one thing that's circulating now among my peers that's quite concerning is that the news of the vaccines is undermining the current advice (wear a mask, maintain distance, lower contact time, etc...) as people are going to mistakenly believe the vaccine is right around the corner and will be readily available - so do whatever you want.

I don't think it takes a Smoove to recognize this trap. We had the same thing all the way back in March when Trump announced a vaccine by October. We had the same when COVID was "under control" in the summer. And now that we "have" a vaccine. And it will lead to less compliance and more spread, particularly going into the holiday months.

Smoove_B wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:42 pm The one thing that's circulating now among my peers that's quite concerning is that the news of the vaccines is undermining the current advice (wear a mask, maintain distance, lower contact time, etc...) as people are going to mistakenly believe the vaccine is right around the corner and will be readily available - so do whatever you want.

I would think that belief that a vaccine is around the corner would *improve* safety measure compliance. If you think a vaccine is going to be available next month, then you want to be extra cautious as no one wants to get COVID the night before getting the vaccine. If you think a vaccine is never going to be available and you'll get it sooner or later, on the other hand, then might as well just live your life, right?

Obviously people are crazy and stupid and will do all sorts of crazy things, but I think the average response would be closer to the above.

El Guapo wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:06 pmI would think that belief that a vaccine is around the corner would *improve* safety measure compliance. If you think a vaccine is going to be available next month, then you want to be extra cautious as no one wants to get COVID the night before getting the vaccine. If you think a vaccine is never going to be available and you'll get it sooner or later, on the other hand, then might as well just live your life, right?

I agree. When I talk to my friends that are...less rigorous...about COVID safety, their biggest argument is usually something like "I was good for 6 months, it totally sucked, and I'm not going to do that forever. Nobody can tell me when this is going to be over, so I'm just going to accept that there is an additional risk to going to that party and go anyway." I think that if someone could credibly say "Ok, I know it will suck, but be good for another 2 months and you'll have a vaccine." then they would probably get right back on board.

(Needless to say, all of my friends who fall into that category are below 40 and in good health.)

El Guapo wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 2:06 pm

Smoove_B wrote: Mon Nov 16, 2020 1:42 pm The one thing that's circulating now among my peers that's quite concerning is that the news of the vaccines is undermining the current advice (wear a mask, maintain distance, lower contact time, etc...) as people are going to mistakenly believe the vaccine is right around the corner and will be readily available - so do whatever you want.

I would think that belief that a vaccine is around the corner would *improve* safety measure compliance. If you think a vaccine is going to be available next month, then you want to be extra cautious as no one wants to get COVID the night before getting the vaccine. If you think a vaccine is never going to be available and you'll get it sooner or later, on the other hand, then might as well just live your life, right?

Obviously people are crazy and stupid and will do all sorts of crazy things, but I think the average response would be closer to the above.

If someone thinks a vaccine is going to be available next month the calculus changes from "we're in the middle of the shit" to "we're exiting the shit." It's when people drop their guard. Plus it won't be a month for most people. It will be 5 or 6 or more. Putting an expiration on COVID is a terrible strategy.