Octopus Overlords

Little B 15.5 plays trombone in her HS marching band. School started today so they're now into their Fall practice routine. They get out of school at 2:30, then have practice from 5:30-9:00pm four days a week (I assume they start later so the kids actually have some time to do homework). They then typically perform at football games on Fridays and then do all-day competitions most Saturdays.

To me, the time commitment expected for band feels completely insane. I was a collegiate athlete and we didn’t practice nearly as much as these high school band kids do. However, since I was never in band, I have no idea if this is typical or not. Curious to hear the experience of anyone else who has (or had) kids in marching band.

Here's the other problem. She has to catch the bus at 6:30am, so she's up by 5:30am. By the time they wrap up and car pool home after band, it’s 9:30pm. Which means that if she gets ready for bed and immediately falls asleep by 10, then she’ll get 7.5 hours of sleep at the most. That…doesn’t seem great for a 15 year old. But when they practice so late, there's no other option.

We looked at it for my daughter in South Carolina (and decided no way) and my niece is in one in Indiana. What you describe accurately reflects both of those situations and yes - the commitment is completely insane and I think should not be allowed.

I guess homework is right out.

My oldest was in marching band and my youngest was in color guard. They both bitched about the time required but neither would get out because of how much they enjoyed it and their friends in it.

My oldest is now in her 30’s and the friends she made in band are still her friends. She also got a lot of exercise during band season. My color guard daughter has knee and shoulder issues that are probably the result of color guard.

As for the expense, it was crazy. We paid around $1,500a year for each. I don’t know if it has been resolved but back then there were two groups fighting over control of the band’s finances and so that was a mess.

Also, I never dealt with any of the band leaders but my impression of them was that they were all assholes.

Scuzz wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 12:22 pmThey both bitched about the time required but neither would get out because of how much they enjoyed it and their friends in it.

That's where Little B is at right now as well. Most of her friend group are band kids, and I don't want to mess that up.

I'm really not even that concerned about the length of the practices, tbh. It seems really excessive to me, but if she wants to do it and can keep her grades up, then I'm fine with it. I'm more concerned about her health (both mental and physical) with getting so little sleep.

I'm trying to figure out a way to say something without coming across as the whiny parent and have it negatively affect her as a result. I feel like "hey, could we maybe cut it back to 8:30 so the kids can get to bed at a decent time?" would be appropriate, but in what little experience I've had with them, both the leaders and the other band parents are...intense. Their entire lives seem to revolve around this, and I worry that me saying anything will label B as "that kid who can't handle the grind".

There have been a few threads on similar topics. I think this was the big one

https://octopusoverlords.com/forum/view ... hp?t=99241

Octavious would post, but I think he has marching band PTSD.

Kids can be pretty resilient. Let your daughter know that if her grades crash then the band will have to go. Help her learn how to use what time she has for doing her homework.

My kids really never got great grades, but both went on to get college degrees.

LordMortis wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 12:58 pm There have been a few threads on similar topics. I think this was the big one

https://octopusoverlords.com/forum/view ... hp?t=99241

Oh geez, I completely forgot about that one. I even posted my concerns about her joining band in that thread. Sure enough, two years later...here we are.

I don't think that this director is hellbent on winning championships. I hope not anyways, because there's no way it's ever gonna happen. The way they separate bands into divisions here is really weird. For some reason, most of the bands that her school competes with are 2X or 3X their size with $1MM+ marching band budgets. Its insane.

Being a sports guy myself, having a kid that does band & theater is like trying to comprehend an entirely different language. I don't understand it at all, but am trying to be as supportive as I can.

Ive dated 2 girls from marching bands....actually both were from the rival high school across town. I married one of them. One was a clarinet player I think the other was head majorette. I dated the first and married the 2nd.

They compete based on effort, not money. And their entire social life gets wrapped up in band members.

I worked that late in high school, so it’s doable. I lived on 2Ls of Coca Cola, which wasn’t healthy, but my family all had crazy metabolism at the time and didn’t drink coffee.

Those hours seem insane to me as well, and I was the very important Band Captain (LOL) of my very large, very competitive marching band in HS. But that was 35 years ago, and kids' extracurriculars have changed significantly since then in my view. Interestingly (or not), I went on to get a 1/2 ride music scholarship in college, and one of the requirements was to be in the marching band (and to take private lessons, be in the symphony, etc). It was a complete joke in terms of time commitment compared to HS, and EXTREMELY slack. OTOH we weren't competing, either.

What you describe sounds like drum corps to me, which is like travel league sports for band nerds. SUPER intense. A few of my friends did those during the summer and they came back...indoctrinated.

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 1:19 pm

LordMortis wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 12:58 pm There have been a few threads on similar topics. I think this was the big one

https://octopusoverlords.com/forum/view ... hp?t=99241

Oh geez, I completely forgot about that one. I even posted my concerns about her joining band in that thread. Sure enough, two years later...here we are.

I don't think that this director is hellbent on winning championships. I hope not anyways, because there's no way it's ever gonna happen. The way they separate bands into divisions here is really weird. For some reason, most of the bands that her school competes with are 2X or 3X their size with $1MM+ marching band budgets. Its insane.

Being a sports guy myself, having a kid that does band & theater is like trying to comprehend an entirely different language. I don't understand it at all, but am trying to be as supportive as I can.

As a sports guy try to put yourself in the place of parents whose kid playing football never gets to play and yet he spends most of his waking hours preparing for it.

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 1:43 pm Those hours seem insane to me as well, and I was the very important Band Captain (LOL) of my very large, very competitive marching band in HS. But that was 35 years ago, and kids' extracurriculars have changed significantly since then in my view. Interestingly (or not), I went on to get a 1/2 ride music scholarship in college, and one of the requirements was to be in the marching band (and to take private lessons, be in the symphony, etc). It was a complete joke in terms of time commitment compared to HS, and EXTREMELY slack. OTOH we weren't competing, either.

What you describe sounds like drum corps to me, which is like travel league sports for band nerds. SUPER intense. A few of my friends did those during the summer and they came back...indoctrinated.

I believe drum corps is like color guard in that the band season is actually more kick back than there competition season.

Zero chance I'd let my kid do that. There is no time for friends, homework, sleep, etc. Plus they would totally kill any love for music.

I had my son, who spent four years in marching band as a section leader until he graduated two years ago, read the initial post.

He thought it was absolutely insane as well.

McNutt wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 4:56 pm Zero chance I'd let my kid do that. There is no time for friends, homework, sleep, etc. Plus they would totally kill any love for music.

Your friends are other kids in the band.

Kid1 was a marching band kid......16 years ago. They put this kind of time in. They were regularly in the top 15 nationally. They practiced way more than the football team.

The director kept trying to carve out more and more time with the kids. Other than marching during football season, you were expected to take play pep band during basketball season and take at least one band class each year.

Kid1 was happy about it for three years and put the fourth year in. She was not a very socially perceptive kid who moved into a new school district in 8th grade. The high school is 4,000 kids. Marching band gave her a built in friend group including several friends in the older class that took her under their wing.

You're trading exploring and experiencing the world for learning dedication, responsibility, and hard work.

Both absolutely have their value.

Although let's be honest, 'exploring and experiencing the world' these days means TikTok and twitting on the Face Books. (When I was in high school in Indiana, it meant getting drunk and screwing - there was almost nothing else to do. As a social outcast, screwing was unavailable, so that left doubling down on the drinking and engaging in criminal mischief.)

I must not have been the only parent who had issues with the ridiculous schedule. We got an email today letting us know that the schedule has been changed to 5:30-9:00pm on Tues and Thurs only, and 4-6pm on Wednesday.

That feels much more doable.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 8:03 pm You're trading exploring and experiencing the world for learning dedication, responsibility, and hard work.

Both absolutely have their value.

Although let's be honest, 'exploring and experiencing the world' these days means TikTok and twitting on the Face Books. (When I was in high school in Indiana, it meant getting drunk and screwing - there was almost nothing else to do. As a social outcast, screwing was unavailable, so that left doubling down on the drinking and engaging in criminal mischief.)

Kids don’t do Facebook anymore.

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 8:16 pm I must not have been the only parent who had issues with the ridiculous schedule. We got an email today letting us know that the schedule has been changed to 5:30-9:00pm on Tues and Thurs only, and 4-6pm on Wednesday.

That feels much more doable.

Slackers.

Scuzz wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 9:26 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 8:03 pm You're trading exploring and experiencing the world for learning dedication, responsibility, and hard work.

Both absolutely have their value.

Although let's be honest, 'exploring and experiencing the world' these days means TikTok and twitting on the Face Books. (When I was in high school in Indiana, it meant getting drunk and screwing - there was almost nothing else to do. As a social outcast, screwing was unavailable, so that left doubling down on the drinking and engaging in criminal mischief.)

Kids don’t do Facebook anymore.

That I know, but rather than try to figure out what they actually use, I just played up the cluelessness.

dfs wrote:

McNutt wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 4:56 pm Zero chance I'd let my kid do that. There is no time for friends, homework, sleep, etc. Plus they would totally kill any love for music.

Your friends are other kids in the band.

I was in the marching band in high school. I had a ton of friends in the band, but my best friends were not in the band. I would not want my child to be limited to a small group of people for their friend pool.

My daughter is in her High School marching band. They only practice after school once a week and it starts directly after school. Besides that they actually have band as an assigned class time where they practice during the school day. So it's a completely reasonable activity.

I am very glad she is in the marching band because she is not an athletic kid and it has done a lot of good things for her. It's given her a positive peer group and a sense of belonging to something. A lot of kids miss out on that if they aren't involved in extra curricular activities.

Scuzz wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 4:12 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 1:43 pm Those hours seem insane to me as well, and I was the very important Band Captain (LOL) of my very large, very competitive marching band in HS. But that was 35 years ago, and kids' extracurriculars have changed significantly since then in my view. Interestingly (or not), I went on to get a 1/2 ride music scholarship in college, and one of the requirements was to be in the marching band (and to take private lessons, be in the symphony, etc). It was a complete joke in terms of time commitment compared to HS, and EXTREMELY slack. OTOH we weren't competing, either.

What you describe sounds like drum corps to me, which is like travel league sports for band nerds. SUPER intense. A few of my friends did those during the summer and they came back...indoctrinated.

I believe drum corps is like color guard in that the band season is actually more kick back than there competition season.

I think you are thinking of the drum section of HS marching band. I'm referring to a whole separate thing. Drum corps are like professional versions of marching bands, except unpaid. Smaller (usually), better, much more intense.

https://www.dci.org/corps

McNutt wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 10:29 pm

dfs wrote:

McNutt wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 4:56 pm Zero chance I'd let my kid do that. There is no time for friends, homework, sleep, etc. Plus they would totally kill any love for music.

Your friends are other kids in the band.

I was in the marching band in high school. I had a ton of friends in the band, but my best friends were not in the band. I would not want my child to be limited to a small group of people for their friend pool.

We had almost 200 people in our marching band IIRC. Then add in people who didn't march, but were in my other music classes like symphony and concert band (another 50-75 probably) and that is not that small of a pool.

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2024 9:10 am

Scuzz wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 4:12 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 1:43 pm Those hours seem insane to me as well, and I was the very important Band Captain (LOL) of my very large, very competitive marching band in HS. But that was 35 years ago, and kids' extracurriculars have changed significantly since then in my view. Interestingly (or not), I went on to get a 1/2 ride music scholarship in college, and one of the requirements was to be in the marching band (and to take private lessons, be in the symphony, etc). It was a complete joke in terms of time commitment compared to HS, and EXTREMELY slack. OTOH we weren't competing, either.

What you describe sounds like drum corps to me, which is like travel league sports for band nerds. SUPER intense. A few of my friends did those during the summer and they came back...indoctrinated.

I believe drum corps is like color guard in that the band season is actually more kick back than there competition season.

I think you are thinking of the drum section of HS marching band. I'm referring to a whole separate thing. Drum corps are like professional versions of marching bands, except unpaid. Smaller (usually), better, much more intense.

https://www.dci.org/corps

My daughters high school had the band drum section that participated at all marching band events, but they also had an off season percussion group that practiced and did competitions after wards. The color guard did the same. So they were at it literally year round.

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2024 9:19 am

McNutt wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 10:29 pm

dfs wrote:

McNutt wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 4:56 pm Zero chance I'd let my kid do that. There is no time for friends, homework, sleep, etc. Plus they would totally kill any love for music.

Your friends are other kids in the band.

I was in the marching band in high school. I had a ton of friends in the band, but my best friends were not in the band. I would not want my child to be limited to a small group of people for their friend pool.

We had almost 200 people in our marching band IIRC. Then add in people who didn't march, but were in my other music classes like symphony and concert band (another 50-75 probably) and that is not that small of a pool.

That’s probably how big my daughter’s schools marching band was. And many schools in their competition group were larger.

When I was in high school, the combined marching band from both schools in the district had about 750 kids, we were told is among the largest in the nation. Our practice was one hour every morning before school, and the combined band would practice a couple of hours before a football game. In the fall, we needed those school nights free to construct the homecoming parade float, of which the music club won more than 30 years in a row until the class after I graduated fucked it up.

The schedule you describe does seem excessive. How would they be able to do any other activity? And what the hell are they doing that is so complicated that it needs that much time? My kids each have 3 nights of activities per week between dance, music theater, piano lessons and taekwondo. My son is just starting band now in 5th grade (maybe that's why...when I was a kid, we started in 4th grade). His music education would need to exclude the school band if they have such an arduous schedule, which I hope is not the case. 90% of the top 10% of my high school graduating class was in the music program.

Isgrimnur wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 12:19 pm I guess homework is right out.

Heh, I had this thought, too, after reading the OP.

Scuzz wrote: ↑Tue Aug 20, 2024 12:22 pm Also, I never dealt with any of the band leaders but my impression of them was that they were all assholes.

This was not my experience, mostly. In grammar school, the band conductor was among the nicest men I ever met. His counterpart in the orchestra, however, was an utter douchebag and would walk down the aisles before competition telling kids, "you suck, don't play." He got fired some years after I graduated for hitting a kid.

In high school, the marching band director was a young guy, very diligent and not at all hard to get along with. After we graduated, he got a department head gig at a school in Colorado. The concert band conductor and was well-loved by all, he would also conduct some notable professional groups, including the annual Nutcracker at the Airie Crown theater. The orchestra conductor was composer Antonin Dvorak's grandson, it was an honor to play for him. All three of the high school conductors were instrumental in instilling a life-long love of classical music, even if I personally did suck at it (as the grammar school conductor pointed out all those years earlier).

Jeff V wrote: ↑Wed Aug 21, 2024 1:31 pm And what the hell are they doing that is so complicated that it needs that much time?

Or alternately:



This was my son's band last year. They took 5th place overall. In Texas band is a UIL activity just like varsity sports. That puts limits on practice time. The band has sectionals for three hours on either Monday or Tuesday depending on which instrument you play. Wednesdays are free. Thursdays have three hours. Friday depends on if there is a game. If there is, there's a short practice after school then a break before meeting to get on the busses to go to the stadium. There might be no after school rehearsal if it's an away game that's not close by. If there's no game, it's a normal after school practice. Saturday normally has a morning practice at the stadium to focus on marching. That can change if there's a Saturday game. There's at least one Thursday game. They compete at Texas UIL band competition and the Bands of America competition. They only go to BoA Grand Nationals every other year. They also host a band competition which acts as a fundraiser to reduce band fees which still end up being around $1800 for a normal year and $2500 for a Grand Nationals year. There are scholarships and many different types of fundraisers to reduce that cost if you can't afford to just write a check. It's a big commitment but not all consuming.

Edit: I guess it won't embed. You should be able to click through.

Our son did 4 years of marching band (2016-2020) and our daughter is an incoming Freshman but this is her 2nd year as they now let 8th graders participate.

The program hasn't changed much over the years. They have a pretty intense end-of-summer routine for 2 weeks in August that's Mon-Thur for about 8 hours a day. Our son did 8-5 with a 1 hour lunch, now they do 8am-12pm and then come back for 4-8pm. After that they settle into 2 days of 5-9pm (usually Tue and Wed) and then just stay after school on Fridays for either practice until 5pm or practice and then perform at home football games until about 8pm. Saturdays are competition days and they typically practice from 9am until leaving for shows around 1-2pm. Depending on travel times they get back anywhere from 9pm-12am.

For our son the school district was part of the Tournament of Bands and we usually had about 8 shows from September through October and a final championship show in November. One crazy weekend had shows at local schools on both Saturday and Sunday and that was just too much. Students were dead tired by Monday.

Now the school district is a part of some New Jersey-only marching band organization and it's a lot more chill. They're only doing 4-5 shows so it's pretty much a show every other weekend through October.

Those are some pretty spectacular shows. For this area, some of the larger school districts (like Naperville with 5 high schools) could pull something like that off, but I know that at least one of their schools just does their own thing (my brother's kids went there). Our district high school band has maybe 200 kids, I don't see them doing anything of the sort. There's also a non-zero chance my son could wind up going to more of a geek school (Illinois Math and Science Academy), not sure if they even have a football team, I'd expect their music program to be completely concert-oriented.

Still have a few years to figure that out, though.

Little B said that the student leadership of the band is going to talk with the director about the practices going so late. Several of the kids are already complaining about falling asleep in class and not having any time to do their homework, and it's only the first week of school. They don't want to shorten the practice time, just move it up so they're not getting home so late. I'm hoping their pleas don't fall on deaf ears, but there are apparently several parents who are ready to have the same discussion with him if it doesn't change. Progress!

Oh, and one of the dads called the band booster president a "fucking bitch" in a group text to all the band booster members last night (because she said he couldn't use the school logo to print his own custom band swag). Band parents are nutso.

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 22, 2024 5:11 pm Band parents are nutso.

How things have changed. It was band parents who bought us booze our last 2 years of high school (and after).

As I mentioned above my kids high school band had financial problems because the woman who ran the fundraising refused to relinquish the funds to the person who took her place when she was voted out. That situation was in place before my kids got there and was still going on when they left.

The band used to have several fundraising programs during the year, and you could reduce your payment if you got involved with them. My wife wasn’t working at the time so she was able to do that. By the time my youngest was done the school decided that mandatory payment wasn’t fair to those who couldn’t afford it. Most still paid but it was obvious that the band couldn’t travel as much as in the past. That was fine with us.

Jeff V wrote: ↑Thu Aug 22, 2024 5:17 pm

Skinypupy wrote: ↑Thu Aug 22, 2024 5:11 pm Band parents are nutso.

How things have changed. It was band parents who bought us booze our last 2 years of high school (and after).

We had a local high school (wealthy area) whose kids got caught drinking on their bus and they were pretty much disbanded for a year.

I graduated high school in 2004. I was in band all 4 years. All my friends were also in band. If someone asks if I remember someone from high school I ask if they were in band, if that answer is "no" then I do not remember them. There were around 400 kids in band until my last year. We were the best band in Louisiana. (there is a school that would disagree) We won the state wide marching competition each year I was there.

Our practice started 2 weeks before school where we had an evening practice where we would learn the show music. 1 week before school we were doing 13 hour days to put the show on the field. Then when school started we had our daily band class and then on Tuesdays and Thursdays we had after school practice from 2:30-5:00. We sometimes would have to extend our after school practice or add in a Saturday or two right before competitions.

We would take 1 trip in the fall for a marching competition and then another trip in the spring for a concert competition and usually march in some parade while there. I remember all the times we traveled to Texas for marching competitions we would get to watch Spring and The Woodlands shows and were always amazed and jealous with how good they were.

It was costly to be in band. We had car washes and the parents could work certain nights at a bingo hall and that money would go towards our trips and yearly fees. I am happy I was in band, I still have most of the friends I made in band. I also traveled a lot more than I would have if I was in other extracurriculars.

This is my favorite show from 2001. Carmina Burana. It is early in the marching band season so it was not as good as it should have been in this recording.