Can cheaters render online communities defunct?

[lorax]

What is a cheater? The answer comes from Mr. Webster: A swindler. From whence do they come, and why do they persist in ravaging online communities. Let’s look at a well document case. Warcraft 3 is a popular real-time strategy game which is played over Battle.net, an online matching service provided by Blizzard. Here is a partial timeline of the cheating bans enforced by them:

April 6th 2005 (battle.net news): 5,900 accounts closed
March 2nd 2005 (battle.net news): ~4,000 accounts closed
January 20th 2005 (battle.net news): ~ 12,000 accounts closed
August 5th 2004 (battle.net news): 18,000 accounts closed
April 1st 2003 (battle.net news): ~12,000 accounts closed
February 1st 2003 (battle.net news): ~27,000 accounts closed
September 12th 2002 (Wired news): ~14,000 accounts closed
April 11th 2002 ( battle.net news): ~8,000 accounts closed

The above is a partial list. So, the true number of closed accounts is actually much higher. Also, many cheaters go undetected. So what is the true percentage of cheaters in Warcraft 3? And for what reason? And for a game with less monitoring, what is the percentage of cheaters in Counterstrike? Or, should we say, Cheaters-strike.

More often than not, the most vocal opponents to bannings are the cheaters themselves. They are the vocal minority who have infiltrated good, fun-loving online communities and wrecked any semblance of order. Will there be a future in rooting out these online cheats, or will online play go defunct like that of the dodo bird?

Please keep your retorts pithy.

[Butterknife]

I resisted voting because I hate to be mean and only one of those responses would fit with my ideas on this subject.

Anyway, I'd say "I do not support cheaters" as would 99% of my fellows, and that cheaters have not effected my online gaming at all (World of Warcraft). Or at least, they effected it so little that I didn't notice, which is good enough for me.

[Faldarian]

Cheaters are the primary reason why I quit playing on Battle.net, why I quit playing CounterStrike and SOF2 online, and a number of other games. I just have no tolerance for it.

Another side effect is that people who are usually really good without cheating suffer. I do ok when I play games online, and I'm very competetive... and it's not unusual for me to be kicked from a server and accused of cheating

[SuperHiro]

Cheaters completely and utterly destroyed Phantasy Star Online (for the Dreamcast). I mean just roasted it. It was once a very robust community that degenerated into practically nothing. I think Gameshark or some other "game code" company actually apologized for pretty much making the game unplayable.

Socom was the same thing I believe.

[LawBeefaroni]

Cheaters hurt pickup/public games. Find a good group to play with and you won't have to worry about it.


And please, choose a different word. The use of "defunct" in the title hurts my eyes and gives me a headache. The loaded poll options don't help either.

[Creepy_Smell]

No.

CS and most online games have cheats. Tons of people still play them. While people do quit playing online there are more that still play so the communities dont die (Otherwise how could CS still be so popular, unless its just cheaters playing cheaters )

If its a personal concern just play on a server with active Admins who can ban servers and keep their cheater blockers up to date.

[Sepiche]

Yeah, that's a pretty one sided poll.

I hate cheaters as much as the next guy. As with others here I've been kicked off servers before because someone thought I was cheating.

Is it annoying? Sure. Does it ruin anything for me? Nope.

s

[Jeff V]

I never encounter cheaters online, now where is my pickle?

[CeeKay]

I hate that damned pickle hack that is flooding CounterGherkin.

[shaggydoug]

I only play online with people I know in real life. Don't trust the rest.

- shaggy

[moss_icon]

wankers are a bigger problem than cheaters.

[Peacedog]

You naive saps. . .do you know how many people cheat at OO? DO YOU?

[Beer Goggles]

At least we know lorax has a sense of humor.

[Kasey Chang]

Cheaters can only ruin a community IF the community has no formal mechanism to enforce its bylaws.

Personally, I say communities should have an "exile" system. If 10-15 people petition you to be exiled, you are immediately prevented from joining any game, and can only join the chat lobby, where a verdict on your eventual status will be decided by a panel of your fellow gamers (elected by other gamers). If that panel of judges, so to speak, has the freedom to pass down sentences anywhere from temporary suspension to outright ban.

You can't rely on the sysops to do everything. There has to be some community involvement, and proper use of reporting, as well as a bit of bounty-hunting, will go a long way.

[DireAussie]

Cheaters aren't so bad where I play because my ISP actively supports anti-cheat policy and have also created their own anti-cheat software.

In MMORPG's it doesnt affect me because I'm never one of the elite. People say how gold duping etc ruins MMORPG's but I think the effect of this is neglible as long as the game company cracks down on it as soon as it happens and has harsh anti-cheat policies and good detection mechanisms.

Personally, I say communities should have an "exile" system. If 10-15 people petition you to be exiled, you are immediately prevented from joining any game, and can only join the chat lobby, where a verdict on your eventual status will be decided by a panel of your fellow gamers (elected by other gamers).

The problem is that you have to have a mature gaming base for this to work, otherwise people vote you off just because they can, and because they're l33t. How many gaming communities would you say are mature? Not many! And those that are mature don't need these mechanisms because 99% of people there don't cheat.

[Kasey Chang]

Personally, I say communities should have an "exile" system. If 10-15 people petition you to be exiled, you are immediately prevented from joining any game, and can only join the chat lobby, where a verdict on your eventual status will be decided by a panel of your fellow gamers (elected by other gamers).

The problem is that you have to have a mature gaming base for this to work, otherwise people vote you off just because they can, and because they're l33t. How many gaming communities would you say are mature? Not many! And those that are mature don't need these mechanisms because 99% of people there don't cheat.

It's be a multi-layered system. The people who's been on the most have more votes, where as newbies don't get any. Clan members can't vote for/against you (not until after 14 days you unjoined) to prevent the "buddy system", though PROVISIONAL Clan member (those joined for less than 14 days) are exempt.

I know, I'm making this up as we go, but the idea is the l33t players tend to jump into a game, cheat the **** out of it to satisfy their ego, then go onto something else. The exile/ban system will let the community report the crime, so to speak, and get some immediate results rather than waiting for the sysops.

And we can raise the threshold to much higher number. It will need some tuning, that's for sure.

[Two Sheds]

And please, choose a different word. The use of "defunct" in the title hurts my eyes and gives me a headache.

Seconded!

And in the case of games like Counterstrike, Day of Defeat, etc., it's all down to the server you play on. If you want a cheater-free game, you've got to find a good server with good admins and players who won't stand for it. That takes time, obviously, but the result is worth it. My roommate and I only play on one Day of Defeat server any more. We play with the same group of people every time and cheating is and never has been a problem.

[lorax]

...the idea is the l33t players tend to jump into a game, cheat the **** out of it to satisfy their ego, then go onto something else.

There is no evidence that cheaters move to a different game after a brief period of time. Instead, it is possible that cheaters tend to play long-term and have a membership in a clan. Why is this? Because they have a network of friends that can distribute cheats among themselves. The members of long-standing clans also gain prestige among their peers by cheating.

The best method to stop cheating is to design a game server that is resistant to cheating. Any other method relies on fair play. And we know fair play is defunct.

Can I repeat this... fair play is defunct.

[Tareeq]

There is no evidence that cheaters move to a different game after a brief period of time.

There is no evidence that they don't.

Instead, it is possible that cheaters tend to play long-term and have a membership in a clan.

Anything is possible. It's possible that there is intelligent life on other planets. If you're asserting that cheaters tend to gravitate to clans, do you have a valid, scientifically controlled primary source?

Why is this? Because they have a network of friends that can distribute cheats among themselves. The members of long-standing clans also gain prestige among their peers by cheating.

Again: source?

The best method to stop cheating is to design a game server that is resistant to cheating. Any other method relies on fair play.

In Saudi Arabia they amputate the right hands of cheaters. Arguably this is even more effective than resistant server design. It's hard for a one-handed man to win with a WASD-mouse setup.

And we know fair play is defunct.

Who's we, suckah?

[lorax]

...the idea is the l33t players tend to jump into a game, cheat the **** out of it to satisfy their ego, then go onto something else.

There is no evidence that cheaters move to a different game after a brief period of time. Instead, it is possible that cheaters tend to play long-term and have a membership in a clan. Why is this? Because they have a network of friends that can distribute cheats among themselves. The members of long-standing clans also gain prestige among their peers by cheating.

Can I repeat this... fair play is defunct.

There is no evidence that they don't.

Anything is possible. It's possible that there is intelligent life on other planets. If you're asserting that cheaters tend to gravitate to clans, do you have a valid, scientifically controlled primary source?

It's difficult to have no evidence of a non-event. To borrow your above analogy: There is no evidence of no extraterrestrial life. Or, this can be stated as such: There is no evidence that they don't (exist). How can you have no evidence of extraterrestrial life not existing? Much less a "scientifically sound primary source". Much less.

The one fact we have is the result of the above poll: Two-thirds of OO (Octopus Overlords) members have decided that online communities are now defunct.

[CeeKay]

The one fact we have is the result of the above poll: Two-thirds of OO (Octopus Overlords) members have decided that online communities are now defunct.

21 out 1106 is the new Two-Thirds? that's a pickle of a cookie.

[Two Sheds]

If you're asserting that cheaters tend to gravitate to clans, do you have a valid, scientifically controlled primary source?

The relevant part of Tareeq's quote, quoted again. He asked for a source on your assertion that cheaters gravitate towards clans, not evidence of the "non-event" of them not moving on to different games. You claimed that a) they gravitate towards clans and b) clans are full of people sharing arcane cheating wisdom. You've provided no evidence for either of these claims.

[Jeff V]

The one fact we have is the result of the above poll: Two-thirds of OO (Octopus Overlords) members have decided that online communities are now defunct.

21 out 1106 is the new Two-Thirds? that's a pickle of a cookie.

Considering this was a Communist Russia-type poll and no option was listed for "No, cheating has not affected my online gaming", there is no meaningful result, period.

I've never encountered any cheaters, but then again, I only play against people I know or people referred by people I know or fellow members of a very mature group (the Blitz).

[morlac]

Since we are making assertations without facts I would say that 98% of the people accused of cheating in online games are just plain GOOD. Any server with active admins will have few to none cheaters. Punkbuster in Joint Opss would not only toss/ban you from the server but would would ban you from any other punkbuster servers. While not perfect at catching the cheaters it worked quite well. Having your cd-key be made obeselote worked well to persuade 'casual' cheaters to maybe not try out that aimbot.

[Two Sheds]

Since we are making assertations without facts I would say that 98% of the people accused of cheating in online games are just plain GOOD.

I would tend to agree with you. People do cheat, but at nowhere near the levels that people seem to think. Some people are just good at the game, and that's all there is to it. I've been (rarely) accused of cheating and so has my roommate. I figure if we can be baselessly accused there's no reason not to give other people the benefit of the doubt.

Sometimes it's really obvious that a person is cheating, but most of the time they're just better than you.

[Peacedog]

The one fact we have is the result of the above poll: Two-thirds of OO (Octopus Overlords) members have decided that online communities are now defunct.

Actually, 22 people who frequent this forum in some, way, shape, or form voted that cheaters have rendered their online gamesdefunct. The very act of participating in this poll refutes the idea that communities are defunct. I doubt very much this would be a good representative sample of OO, given the particulars at hand.

It's difficult to have no evidence of a non-event.

This means what to your original assertion, that "cheaters tend to play long-term and have a membership in a clan"? I guess we can just throw that one out by the wayside next to Tareeq's?

Kasey, you mentioned communities, and I assumed you meant Clans & the like when I read your commentary. But then you could just be talking about the "board presence" for a particular game in general. I'm not sure how often I'd count the latter as a community. Official game message boards tend to look a lot different than us. It doesn't invalidate them (nor does it make them not a community), but we are different. Cheating can certainly cause them problems, and I think you make a good point about having mechanisms available to deal with them. . .

And that point applies to *any* sort of troublemaker and *any* sort of community. How would things be here, for instance, if there was no forum staff around to ban people who too often crossed the line? Nothing good. Usenet suffered because of this at times, IMO. The best defense is to ignore a trouble maker. But sometimes they go to far and need something extra. In the case of games, Trouble Makers(tm) can more easily make your life miserable, of course. I played in a D2 clan where we were mostly shielded from it (private battle.net games) - it was a very nice respite.

[quantum]

The one fact we have is the result of the above poll: Two-thirds of OO (Octopus Overlords) members have decided that online communities are now defunct.

By your logic, just under half of us want you to STFU too.

[lorax]

Since we are making assertations without facts I would say that 98% of the people accused of cheating in online games are just plain GOOD. Any server with active admins will have few to none cheaters.

Here is one fact IGN (gaming web magazine) reported in October 2003:
403,000 cheaters, hackers, and nefarious types have been banned by Blizzard from their online gaming portal, Battle.net. 276,000 StarCraft players, 86,000 Diablo II players, and 41,000 Warcraft III players have had their CD-keys permanently banned for breaking the rules of the gaming service. A further 14,000 Warcraft III CD keys have been banned from ladder play for one month, and 2,000 CD keys are banned from ladder play permanently.

Let’s say that morlac is correct, and 98% of “people accused of cheating are just plain good". Therefore, only 2% of people are true cheaters. If the 403,000 bans represent true cheaters (the 2% number), then the number accused of cheating (the 98%) would be over 20 million. Does this number include the players who are not accused of cheating? No. For the 2% cheating percentage to be correct, accompanied by the fact that 403,000 players were banned, there would need to be tens of millions of new Battle.net participants in October. Absurd.

In reality, the percentage of players cheating is unknown because many go undetected. For the Battle.net servers, which are monitored, the number of bans per month had reached 403,000. Far from "few to none" as stated above. By including the undetected cheaters, it is possible that most players in popular online communities are cheating. And so, let us repeat... "the people accused of cheating are just plain GOOD". Yes, good at cheating.

Here is the other irrefutable fact. Nearly two-thirds of (Octopus Overlord) participants agree that online communities are defunct. Obsoleted by perfidious recreation.

[Peacedog]

Let’s say that morlac is correct

Actually, I think that would be a mistake. Punctilious observation would appear to reveal a fatuousness in his assertion.

Here is the other irrefutable fact.
Nearly two-thirds of (Octopus Overlord) participants agree that online communities are defunct.

Cite.

[Tareeq]

Here is the other irrefutable fact. Nearly two-thirds of (Octopus Overlord) participants agree that online communities are defunct. Obsoleted by perfidious recreation.

I see that the third option is gaining fast.

[Kasey Chang]

...the idea is the l33t players tend to jump into a game, cheat the **** out of it to satisfy their ego, then go onto something else.

There is no evidence that cheaters move to a different game after a brief period of time. Instead, it is possible that cheaters tend to play long-term and have a membership in a clan. Why is this? Because they have a network of friends that can distribute cheats among themselves. The members of long-standing clans also gain prestige among their peers by cheating.

Doubt that completely. What you're saying is cheaters attract cheaters, but when cheaters play against cheaters you end up with ego trips on who got the biggest cheat, and that's as childish as they come. No, cheaters cheat regular players because they can't stand to lose. Depending on the game, they may or may not move on, but usually one game won't last too long as they have mastered all the cheats and clubbing baby seals gets boring after a while.

Besides, a clan of cheaters attracts attention, unless it's an underground society that can't bear the light (i.e. attention). Even then it just takes one sour grape to explose the whole thing. There may be a groups of cheaters out there, and individual cheaters may have membership in certain clans, but even clans clamp down on cheaters.

I think what we need to see is some sort of MONETARY damage to cheaters. That'll cut them off quickly. Like "your account has been deducted $10 for cheating. Evidence is "_______". If you wish to contest this, you may contact ______ community court, which holds session at ______ during ______, where you can present your case." If cheaters start losing REAL money cheaters won't try as hard.

[Peacedog]

Depending on the game, they may or may not move on, but usually one game won't last too long as they have mastered all the cheats and clubbing baby seals gets boring after a while.

That's not entirely true, IMO. For example - I think a number of battle.net cheaters are repeat offenders who try and obtain another code to get another account. I don't know how many, but a hunch says it's a significant amount (though likely not the majority). Also, there are the people whop cheat who never got in trouble for a long time. The battle.net trade market was flooded with duped items, possibly to this day. That speaks to other issues, of course, but I think when you look at "cheater" you're talking about a pretty diverse group, and I'm sure we could identify a number of generic personalities to fit it.

[Tareeq]

Depending on the game, they may or may not move on, but usually one game won't last too long as they have mastered all the cheats and clubbing baby seals gets boring after a while.

That's not entirely true, IMO. For example - I think a number of battle.net cheaters are repeat offenders who try and obtain another code to get another account. I don't know how many, but a hunch says it's a significant amount (though likely not the majority).

Even so, that drastically cuts down the number of individual cheaters in lorax's methodically reasoned calculations. I daresay a lot of the banned battlenet accounts are repeat offenders. You can buy Diablo II for less than the cost of a night at the movies.

[Peacedog]

Even so, that drastically cuts down the number of individual cheaters in lorax's methodically reasoned calculations. I daresay a lot of the banned battlenet accounts are repeat offenders. You can buy Diablo II for less than the cost of a night at the movies.

Drastically cuts is an understandment. I said "not a majority before", but I'm really stressed right now with school ending tomorrow (for all intents and purposes) and I'm juggling multiple school and work projects. I'm frazzled. I really meant "I bet a smaller group of people does alot of cheating". I think there's a significant amount of "serial cheaters" who hang around a game for some time, if they are allowed, even though they may not make up the majority of cheaters (though I doubt we get many "casual" cheaters. They're all hobbists, like us).

Though it may be that Diablo 2 was more of a magnet for it. It was easier to cheat there I think, for a long time to boot, than it is in your typical MMO (possibly excepting the first generation gameS: Meridian, UO, and the like). Hell, the trade economy was duped Stone of Jordan driven for years.

It seems to me that several MMOs are doing record numbers these days (EQ2 is setting Verant records, at least, and WoW is setting Us records). I wonder what that means.

[lorax]

Warcraft 3 is a popular real-time strategy game which is played over Battle.net, an online matching service provided by Blizzard. Here is a partial timeline of the cheating bans enforced by them:

April 6th 2005 (battle.net news): 5,900 accounts closed
March 2nd 2005 (battle.net news): ~4,000 accounts closed
January 20th 2005 (battle.net news): ~ 12,000 accounts closed
August 5th 2004 (battle.net news): 18,000 accounts closed
April 1st 2003 (battle.net news): ~12,000 accounts closed
February 1st 2003 (battle.net news): ~27,000 accounts closed
September 12th 2002 (Wired news): ~14,000 accounts closed
April 11th 2002 ( battle.net news): ~8,000 accounts closed

Do you realize that cheaters have continued to ravage this online community. Read the latest news:
"A number of additional accounts and CD keys have been tied to the use of a hack or cheat program while playing Warcraft III on Battle.net. In keeping with our aggressive stance against cheating, we have permanently closed 53,928 Warcraft III accounts."

Stop the pain!

[Jaymann]

And the answer is...

Cheaters have rendered Warcraft 3 defunct.