Octopus Overlords

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 6:46 pm**

It seems like we would benefit from a thread where people can ask about living in various places. Some of us occasionally move, and it would be good to collect impressions about potential living destinations.

I'll start: I have a good job in Philadelphia, but (as a response to my impending divorce) I've just now submitted a couple of applications for attractive academic library positions elsewhere. I'm extremely well suited for both and would take either if offered, but it's a flooded job market. Still, I thought I'd ask about destinations.

The first job is at Vassar in Poughkeepsie, NY, right on the Hudson River a ways north of NYC. I've never been there, and initial online impressions are that it's not the world's greatest college town. Still, the job would attract me. Has anyone lived there?

The second is at UM in Ann Arbor, MI. I know the place well because I lived there from 1992 to 2002. I have fond memories of it, and it seems like it still has a lot of great stuff going on, but I'd be interested in hearing how it has changed in the last 20 years or so.

(In OO terms, Poughkeepsie would put me reasonably close to Kraken's new lair, and Ann Arbor features both Lord Mortis and visiting range to the Chicago contingent.)

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:04 pm**

As long as you get as far away from rural Texas as you can, I have no opinion.

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:06 pm**

where i've lived, if anyone wants to know about:

Minneapolis/St. Paul metro area, MN
Seattle area, WA (specifically the city of Seattle, but i lived on the eastside for a few years)

and i've spent a lot of time in:
Manhattan area, NYC
SE Alaska islands (and the towns of Juneau, Wrangell and Petersburg)
Austin, TX

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:26 pm**

I've known nothing but great things from the people who work for the UofM. Let's hope it endures. Ann Arbor has a pretty high cost of living compared to the surrounding area but it also much standard of living. I don't know much about the specifics of day to day there any more. I don't get out... ever... Personally, I would not venture eastward to Wayne County where I live. The first place you hit is Canton where housing and taxes are insane, for nothing, really. Moving north to Plymouth and Northville, you get something but the housing and taxes hike up even furhter. Moving further east to where I'm at you start getting in to an R&P nightmare to discuss in EBG and crime is going up while civil services are going down. So if you think "around Ann Arbor" think south, west, or north and decide research which poison you prefer. North gets very ethnocentric for the myth of a Caucasian American dream and brings all the baggage of racist people beyond their racism as well. West get more expensive until Jackson. South, I'm honestly not too familiar with.

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:32 pm**

Default wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:04 pm As long as you get as far away from rural Texas as you can, I have no opinion.

Urban Texas ain't no picnic, either.

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:36 pm**

LordMortis wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:26 pm I've known nothing but great things from the people who work for the UofM. Let's hope it endures. Ann Arbor has a pretty high cost of living compared to the surrounding area but it also much standard of living. I don't know much about the specifics of day to day there any more. I don't get out... ever... Personally, I would not venture eastward to Wayne County where I live. The first place you hit is Canton where housing and taxes are insane, for nothing, really. Moving north to Plymouth and Northville, you get something but the housing and taxes hike up even furhter. Moving further east to where I'm at you start getting in to an R&P nightmare to discuss in EBG and crime is going up while civil services are going down. So if you think "around Ann Arbor" think south, west, or north and decide research which poison you prefer. North gets very ethnocentric for the myth of a Caucasian American dream and brings all the baggage of racist people beyond their racism as well. West get more expensive until Jackson. South, I'm honestly not too familiar with.

I've heard that recently Ypsilanti (just east of Ann Arbor and cheaper) is a good option as AA prices push people farther out. Is that not so?

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:44 pm**

Holman wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:36 pm
LordMortis wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 7:26 pm I've known nothing but great things from the people who work for the UofM. Let's hope it endures. Ann Arbor has a pretty high cost of living compared to the surrounding area but it also much standard of living. I don't know much about the specifics of day to day there any more. I don't get out... ever... Personally, I would not venture eastward to Wayne County where I live. The first place you hit is Canton where housing and taxes are insane, for nothing, really. Moving north to Plymouth and Northville, you get something but the housing and taxes hike up even furhter. Moving further east to where I'm at you start getting in to an R&P nightmare to discuss in EBG and crime is going up while civil services are going down. So if you think "around Ann Arbor" think south, west, or north and decide research which poison you prefer. North gets very ethnocentric for the myth of a Caucasian American dream and brings all the baggage of racist people beyond their racism as well. West get more expensive until Jackson. South, I'm honestly not too familiar with.
I've heard that recently Ypsilanti (just east of Ann Arbor and cheaper) is a good option as AA prices push people farther out. Is that not so?

Ypsi has its own challenges and blights. If possible, I'd probably stop short in Pittsfield or maybe veer to the Southeast rural Ypsi/Saline. That's actually a pretty nice area. Remus West and Redrun both live that way. What Ypsi does have (aside the university I graduated from) is an absolutely top notch medical complex. Getting to where I am in age and health, that's an important consideration. I rate it much higher than UofM's medical, which would come in second. When you were in Ann Arbor, you would have known it as St Joseph. They grew into a huge campus of sister facilities that all eventually became the foundation for Trinity care and facilities are pretty amazing, comparatively.

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:39 pm**

I've heard Michigan has some......interesting winters. But you know that.

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:03 pm**

dbt1949 wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 8:39 pm I've heard Michigan has some......interesting winters. But you know that.

Oh, I moved there in 1992 after living in Georgia and Alabama most of my life. When I visited campus the prior April, there were two feet of snow on the ground. I could hardly believe it.

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:10 pm**

I'm looking for a spot in a blue state that's got a good track record on civil rights, a diverse population, good medical responses and support systems, low crime, low humidity, cold winters and cool summers, legalized marijuana, and a two-bedroom home in a safe neighborhood for $400 per month.

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:18 pm**

Blackhawk wrote:I'm looking for a spot in a blue state that's got a good track record on civil rights, a diverse population, good medical responses and support systems, low crime, low humidity, cold winters and cool summers, legalized marijuana, and a two-bedroom home in a safe neighborhood for $400 per month.

Connecticut would be right up your alley if not for our ridiculous housing costs. Quick search looks like you can't get a crappy studio in inner city Hartford for much less than $1000, and those aren't very nice places to live.

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:26 pm**

Unfortunately the more desirable a place is, the more it costs to live there. MA has everything you want except cheap housing. In Greater Boston, where 2/3 of the state's population lives, a 2BR apartment will run you $2,000 and the median house price is $750k. We have a severe housing shortage, which is why I won't recommend that anybody move here.

In my new hometown of Pittsfield, the median household income is only $65k compared to $128k where I lived before, and housing prices are roughly 1/2 as well. You still won't find anything for $400/mo without Section 8 or comparable assistance and I have no experience or knowledge of subsidized housing...except that it's in short supply.

MA will look better when some of the housing initiatives currently in the works bear fruit and another 10 years of climate change makes our winters more attractive. Until then, look elsewhere.

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:44 pm**

Kraken wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:26 pm In my new hometown of Pittsfield, the median household income is only $65k compared to $128k where I lived before, and housing prices are roughly 1/2 as well.

Yeah, my comment was a joke. And median household here is $26,115.

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:46 pm**

Blackhawk wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:44 pm
Kraken wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:26 pm In my new hometown of Pittsfield, the median household income is only $65k compared to $128k where I lived before, and housing prices are roughly 1/2 as well.
Yeah, my comment was a joke. And median household here is $26,115.

I laughed.

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:57 pm**

I've been to Poughkeepsie before, and it's rather nice! Nice restaurants and craft beer scene, as well lots of outdoor activities. Wife has a friend there, and we attended a Filipino fundraiser there about 5 years ago.

I've been elsewhere in upstate NY and have been far less impressed.

If I had a choice in the US and for some reason felt I had to get out of dodge (well, Chicago), my choices would probably be Denver (lots of OOers there), or Portland, OR (my favorite city to travel to). If you want to get REALLY far away, well, I now have a furnished condo we can rent to you in Manila. They do speak American English there.

Posted: **Wed Feb 05, 2025 11:07 pm**

That’s good to know as I still struggle with Spanish English and Tibetan English.

Posted: **Thu Feb 06, 2025 12:05 am**

I can't remember, do you have kids, or anything else where proximity to Philly might be desirable?

Posted: **Thu Feb 06, 2025 12:13 am**

IDK anything about Poughkeepsie. I did live in Albany for a few years and am less than an hour from there now; my routine travels sometimes cross the NY state border. They accept American money and speak English there, albeit with a funny accent.

I liked Albany. I didn't like the NY government's corruption. But that was decades ago. I'm sure they've cleaned it up by now.

Posted: **Thu Feb 06, 2025 10:25 am**

El Guapo wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2025 12:05 am I can't remember, do you have kids, or anything else where proximity to Philly might be desirable?

I have two boys, one 21 and one 18. I don't want to be too far away from them, which does give me pause about moving.

The older, though, will be heading off to grad school in parts unknown within a couple of years. The younger is less academically inclined and will probably stay in Philly. Their mom will be here too, as she'll be at U Penn until retirement.

I think the odds are low that I will get either of the jobs I'm looking at simply because the market is so fully flooded. I'm a great candidate for them, but so are lots of other people.

Posted: **Thu Feb 06, 2025 10:34 am**

I've got nothing. Metro Atlanta doesn't really have anything I would recommend. There are good parts but I rank it as a place to move to for a job not a place you want to move to. I'm also probably a little messed up since I voluntarily moved to Philly!

Posted: **Thu Feb 06, 2025 11:05 am**

Madmarcus wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2025 10:34 am I've got nothing. Metro Atlanta doesn't really have anything I would recommend. There are good parts but I rank it as a place to move to for a job not a place you want to move to. I'm also probably a little messed up since I voluntarily moved to Philly!

I grew up around Atlanta. If I were moving back there, I'd look for a place in the North Decatur or Druid Hills areas. Really, anywhere around Emory University is nice (if expensive now). Of course I still have friends there, so it wouldn't be a lonely move.

Posted: **Thu Feb 06, 2025 2:09 pm**

From a Youtube channel I subscribe to-

Posted: **Thu Feb 06, 2025 2:19 pm**

Blackhawk wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:10 pm I'm looking for a spot in a blue state that's got a good track record on civil rights, a diverse population, good medical responses and support systems, low crime, low humidity, cold winters and cool summers, legalized marijuana, and a two-bedroom home in a safe neighborhood for $400 per month.

Iowa fits all of these except for blue state, civil rights, diversity, good medical responses/supports system (they're fine if you have great insurance or aren't pregnant), low humidity, cool summers, legalized marijuana, and safe neighborhood for $400 per month. But we're good on cold winters so there's that. Unless you want snow. It doesn't snow much here any more. If you just want bitter cold and a lot of wind Iowa is perfect. Honestly there are maybe three states that wouldn't be preferable to Iowa.

Posted: **Thu Feb 06, 2025 2:20 pm**

So... Indiana.

Posted: **Thu Feb 06, 2025 2:42 pm**

Holman wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2025 11:05 am I grew up around Atlanta. If I were moving back there, I'd look for a place in the North Decatur or Druid Hills areas. Really, anywhere around Emory University is nice (if expensive now).

I thought of mentioning that you know Atlanta about as well as I do but decided to leave it out! You're right that there are some nice areas around Emory but I suspect that most larger metro areas have similar nice enclaves. There is nothing attracting me but if I had a job down there again I'd certainly look into that area.

Posted: **Thu Feb 06, 2025 6:24 pm**

Blackhawk wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2025 2:20 pm So... Indiana.

Blue is far from their favorite color. Even IU's color is red.

Arizona I suppose could be considered purple. You get cold weather at high elevation (when I went to the Grand Canyon, it was -3 on the rim, slightly colder than it was back in Chicago).

Now, where I live in far west suburban Chicago (so far west that Pacific ocean monsoons would be a problem if not for annual drought), I live in a diverse county (Kendall) that is largely rural (I live in the county seat, pop 22,000, largest town in the county is Oswego at 33K). There is low-income housing here, availability is uncertain -- it also appears to be the county with the highest median income. Kane County north of here is larger, quite diverse with lots of low-income housing (especially Aurora and Elgin) but in safe communities.

I had a customer point out a nearby apartment complex and lamented he earned $200 a month too much to live there -- I get a lot of customers there (4 of my first 5 rides yesterday). And those are fairly nice apartments, if you lower the bar, there is lower income options available. Our congressperson is a black woman who ousted Trump's cabana boy during his first midterms. And the weather is 360 degrees apart from Indiana.

Posted: **Fri Feb 07, 2025 10:26 am**

Jeff V wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2025 6:24 pm
Blackhawk wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2025 2:20 pm So... Indiana.
Blue is far from their favorite color. Even IU's color is red.

BH knows that - he's in Indiana. He's pointing out that EH3K basically described Iowa as the same as Indiana.

Posted: **Fri Feb 07, 2025 10:47 am**

There are things about the Utah suburbs that I love, and things that I really struggle with.

On the plus side, it’s naturally beautiful, there’s plenty of outdoor things to do, the weather is pretty mild, it’s safe, traffic isn’t terrible, and people are generally really friendly. I’ve got no family keeping me here, but Mrs Skinypuoy’s entire extended is all here.

On the down side, housing costs are insane. Median home prices in my area are $604,000 and average rent is $1,800-2,000. I would never be able to afford a home if I hadn’t moved in 20+ years ago. It’s really quirky with so many Mormons, but I’m used to that since I was raised with that. I bump up against that sometimes as a godless heathen, but it’s pretty easy to navigate since I was raised a member of that club. It’s extremely white and very much “cookie cutter” without much interesting culture. And while Salt Lake proper is blue, everything outside of that is as ruby red as it gets. We foisted Mike Lee on the world, for gods sake.

All in all, the positives outweigh the negatives…for now. I’d ultimately like to get back to Colorado at some point (if I could convince the missus to leave), but I don’t think I’ll ever be able to afford it.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 12:53 am**

Blackhawk wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:10 pm I'm looking for a spot in a blue state that's got a good track record on civil rights, a diverse population, good medical responses and support systems, low crime, low humidity, cold winters and cool summers, legalized marijuana, and a two-bedroom home in a safe neighborhood for $400 per month.

Seattle has this; i just assume you left a '0' off at the end of that monthly rental price

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:47 am**

hitbyambulance wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 12:53 am
Blackhawk wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:10 pm I'm looking for a spot in a blue state that's got a good track record on civil rights, a diverse population, good medical responses and support systems, low crime, low humidity, cold winters and cool summers, legalized marijuana, and a two-bedroom home in a safe neighborhood for $400 per month.
Seattle has this; i just assume you left a '0' off at the end of that monthly rental price

Plus they have a couple of calderas in the Cascade Mountains, which is nice.

Posted: **Sat Feb 08, 2025 12:48 pm**

hitbyambulance wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 12:53 am
Blackhawk wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:10 pm I'm looking for a spot in a blue state that's got a good track record on civil rights, a diverse population, good medical responses and support systems, low crime, low humidity, cold winters and cool summers, legalized marijuana, and a two-bedroom home in a safe neighborhood for $400 per month.
Seattle has this; i just assume you left a '0' off at the end of that monthly rental price

There are a lot of places that qualify except for that zero. Michelle and I were pondering plans for Vermont prior to my ending the relationship (it's supposed to be one of the better states to be poor in.)

Realistically, I'm hoping to move to Illinois in the next few years. I only live a few miles from the state line, so it wouldn't be a huge relocation, and while I'd still be stuck in the rural Midwest, I'd be sheltering under the blue gaze of Chicago (hopefully) keeping Illinois a better place to live.

Posted: **Sun Feb 09, 2025 12:42 am**

What ate people's opinions about North Carolina?
We are visiting there this coming Thursday to look at areas to potentially move.
Any areas to avoid?
Any areas that are nice?
Assume a total income of around 50k. I'm on SSDI. My wife may retire early and get a part time job as she has some medical issues. I've actually thought about trying to get her SSDI, but she's currently out of work and has no insurance so we can't get evaluated by a doctor.

Posted: **Sun Feb 09, 2025 12:53 am**

We thought about retiring to NC before we decided to stay in MA. Ultimately we decided the summers are too hot and outside of a few oases it's too conservative. It seems like a nice place, just not for us. But having never actually *been* there this isn't an informed opinion, just hearsay.

Posted: **Sun Feb 09, 2025 11:24 am**

Punisher wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2025 12:42 am What ate people's opinions about North Carolina?
We are visiting there this coming Thursday to look at areas to potentially move.
Any areas to avoid?
Any areas that are nice?
Assume a total income of around 50k. I'm on SSDI. My wife may retire early and get a part time job as she has some medical issues. I've actually thought about trying to get her SSDI, but she's currently out of work and has no insurance so we can't get evaluated by a doctor.

I don't know anything about the coast, but the Research Triangle area (Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill) is definitely on my list of places I could imagine living if I returned to the South. I've spent a few weeks in total visiting friends there.

Ashville NC has also long been considered an artistic and creative oasis, but they were recently hammered by terrible flooding from Hurricane Helene and are still rebuilding basic infrastructure. This might actually be a good time to buy there, assuming they're going to make it back.

People also speak well of Charlotte and Winston-Salem.

Posted: **Sun Feb 09, 2025 7:53 pm**

I'm pretty confident I'd want to be in decent driving distance of Raleigh. Only because they have a Microcenter there.

Posted: **Sun Feb 09, 2025 9:54 pm**

I grew up in the South, raised in suburbs around Atlanta and Birmingham and with four grandparents in Hattiesburg plus cousins near New Orleans and Nashville.

As a left-leaning academic type, there are a few places I could imagine choosing if I were returning to the Southeast:

NC: any of the places listed in my post a couple of replies upthread.
SC: maybe Charleston?
GA: certain Atlanta neighborhoods (Decatur, Dunwoody, Sandy Springs, Buckhead if you're rich), Athens, Savannah.
AL: Huntsville, certain suburbs south of Birmingham (especially Mountain Brook), Montgomery apparently, Fairhope.
MS: Jackson? Maybe Gulfport?
LA: probably only look for good neighborhoods around New Orleans.
TN: Nashville, Chattanooga, Knoxville.
FL: not interested.

Posted: **Mon Feb 10, 2025 10:54 am**

Punisher wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2025 7:53 pm I'm pretty confident I'd want to be in decent driving distance of Raleigh. Only because they have a Microcenter there.

I don't think so. Microcenter's website says Charlotte. On the other hand, I live in Raleigh and love it. I prefer it greatly to Charlotte. Greensboro is where I grew up and I also prefer it to Charlotte. (Not that I am hating on Charlotte, it's fine.)

Posted: **Mon Feb 10, 2025 11:49 am**

Blackhawk wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 12:48 pm
hitbyambulance wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 12:53 am
Blackhawk wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 10:10 pm I'm looking for a spot in a blue state that's got a good track record on civil rights, a diverse population, good medical responses and support systems, low crime, low humidity, cold winters and cool summers, legalized marijuana, and a two-bedroom home in a safe neighborhood for $400 per month.
Seattle has this; i just assume you left a '0' off at the end of that monthly rental price
There are a lot of places that qualify except for that zero. Michelle and I were pondering plans for Vermont prior to my ending the relationship (it's supposed to be one of the better states to be poor in.)

Realistically, I'm hoping to move to Illinois in the next few years. I only live a few miles from the state line, so it wouldn't be a huge relocation, and while I'd still be stuck in the rural Midwest, I'd be sheltering under the blue gaze of Chicago (hopefully) keeping Illinois a better place to live.

Tread carefully, as Chicago remains on a fast track to bankruptcy. As reported a few months ago in the New York Times:

What’s the Matter With Chicago?

nytimes.com wrote:The burden of debt and public pensions could soon push Chicago into bankruptcy.

The word bankruptcy has been hanging over Chicago like a storm cloud about to burst. Mayor Brandon Johnson is the latest leader to attempt to close Chicago’s gaping fiscal gap: He proposed a $300 million property tax increase to partly fill Chicago’s $982 million projected budget deficit, only to have it be unanimously rejected by the City Council. The Council narrowly passed a budget on Dec. 16, with far less in tax increases than the mayor had initially demanded.

The Windy City’s woes are the product of decades of fiscal profligacy and a cautionary tale to policymakers in every region and at every level of government: Retirement benefits are like free junk food to politicians — everyone loves them, and the bills don’t arrive until later. They can be ruinous for a city’s long-term fiscal health.

At the heart of Chicago’s deficit are decades of increasingly generous retirement benefits offered by Chicago’s leaders to more than 30,000 public employees, a politically powerful constituency. Today, a city employee retiring after 35 years with a final salary of $75,000 would receive combined pension and retiree health benefits of about $77,000.

The city government has failed to fund those pension promises fully and the bill has come due. Retirement benefits and debt service together made up 43 percent of Chicago’s budget in 2022, the highest rate of any U.S. city. Chicago spends more on debt and pensions than it does on the police and infrastructure, according to an analysis from the Illinois Policy Institute, a libertarian-leaning policy group. In other words, Chicago is paying for the past, not investing for the future.

Chicago’s pension actuary warned in a letter to the plan’s leadership last year and again this year that “the fund is still at risk of potential insolvency if an economic recession or investment market downturn were to occur in the near term.” (He wrote it in boldface to get policymakers to take notice.)

Chicago owes bondholders almost $29 billion. It also faces $35 billion in unfunded pension liabilities and almost $2 billion in unfunded retiree health benefits. And these figures do not include an additional $14 billion in unfunded benefits owed to Chicago’s teachers. The watchdog group Truth in Accounting gives Chicago a grade of F for fiscal responsibility, ranking it 74 out of 75 cities. (New York City is last.)

City leaders may continue to ignore these warnings. If the pension fund does get close to insolvency, Chicago can most likely keep the pension checks flowing by suspending payments to bondholders. Illinois has no legal provision for Chicago to declare bankruptcy, meaning the state would be forced to rush legislation into place to prevent financial chaos.

Judging by the experience of places such as Detroit and Puerto Rico, where I serve on a federally appointed board overseeing the island government’s bankruptcy, pensions would largely be protected in the event of fiscal chaos, followed by core government operations. Nonessential government services would be reduced, and bondholders would receive what remains.

Even if Chicago can contain the political fallout locally, the economic impact would reach far beyond the city limits. Chicago is the largest city in the Midwest and the third largest nationwide. The state of Illinois, which faces vast debts of its own, is not in a position to bail out its largest city, so Congress or the Federal Reserve might have to step in to help.

Suffice to say, the prospect of Congress and the Federal Reserve bailing out Chicago under the current administration seems about as reliable as a one-legged chair.

Posted: **Mon Feb 10, 2025 12:03 pm**

Holman wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2025 9:54 pm I grew up in the South, raised in suburbs around Atlanta and Birmingham and with four grandparents in Hattiesburg plus cousins near New Orleans and Nashville.

As a left-leaning academic type, there are a few places I could imagine choosing if I were returning to the Southeast ...

My left leaning son has been surprised at how decent it has been living in Montgomery AL

Posted: **Mon Feb 10, 2025 12:20 pm**

Madmarcus wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2025 12:03 pm
Holman wrote: Sun Feb 09, 2025 9:54 pm I grew up in the South, raised in suburbs around Atlanta and Birmingham and with four grandparents in Hattiesburg plus cousins near New Orleans and Nashville.

As a left-leaning academic type, there are a few places I could imagine choosing if I were returning to the Southeast ...
My left leaning son has been surprised at how decent it has been living in Montgomery AL

Oh that's right! I've heard good things about Montgomery, but I've never been there.

Octopus Overlords

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