I see widespread agreement and desire to resist America's transformation into a christofascist kleptocracy, or whatever specific dystopia we're hurtling toward. I also see (and share) frustration and confusion about who could be doing what to stop it.
Let's use this thread to weigh ideas.
Judith Levine at The Guardian makes a case for withholding our taxes. As someone who pays five figures in taxes, I'm open to persuasion. So tell me how.
Most of us pay federal taxes through payroll withholding; good luck at interrupting that. We who have to make additional quarterly estimated tax payments might choose to pay those into an escrow account instead. When the reckoning eventually comes due, we'll owe penalties and interest on the money we didn't deposit, and continued refusal to pay will not end well. We'll end up financially ruined at best.
The closest she comes to acknowledging that is to say that the crippled IRS will take forever to catch us. That's weak.
I'm not philosophically opposed to tax avoidance if someone can explain how to do it without winding up broke or imprisoned or both, but I'd like to hear some better ideas.
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 12:48 am
by Archinerd
I'm considering NOT e-filing my federal taxes this year, and instead sending them through the US Postal Service. It will be legal and may be nearly as good as not paying them at all if the trend continues.
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 12:55 am
by Jaymann
I'm not convinced committing a crime is the way to stop criminals. One idea I have seen that is reachable is to flood any Muskian web site or hotline with thousands of phony reports (especially of the narc on your family and friends type), crippling them with denial of service.
Another thing I have seen pointed out is that 1939 Germany did not have the instant information of cell phones and the internet. Makes it a bit more difficult to commit atrocities when they are out there for everyone to see. Unfortunately not impossible, but one can only hope the cumulative effect (plus especially rising inflation) will create some motivation.
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 2:00 am
by naednek
Archinerd wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 12:48 am
I'm considering NOT e-filing my federal taxes this year, and instead sending them through the US Postal Service. It will be legal and may be nearly as good as not paying them at all if the trend continues.
I did the opposite. I filed as soon as possible because I had a solar credit due and was worried Trump would rescind that program. Got paid today!
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 2:33 am
by Lagom Lite
The American resistance needs to reach out to American former allies in NATO (Europe and Canada) now that your administration is allying with our enemies and throwing away all the American soft power you've so cleverly crafted since 1945.
Let me tell you there is a LOT of bad blood in Europe right now. No one wants to lose America as an ally, but after Vance's Munich speech and Musks visit to German neo-nazi rallies, both of which are taken as attempted American/Russian election interference, there is pressure on European leaders to act. Some consider America and Europe as no longer allies - these are harsh words.
I've already heard voices float the idea of creating a new European Barton Woods-like agreement to boost the Euro to reserve currency status, competing with the Dollar as international currency. Given your debt and trade deficit, this would sink the American economy to where it could not recover. You don't want this to happen (neither do we, really). You're also looking at brain drain, if domestic policy goes so far that the best and brightest among you decide that they'd rather live over here.
But if there is a strong, loud resistance in America who is presenting a clear alternative (a leader or group of leaders) that the opposition unites behind and openly seeks the aid of America's former allies, you might be able to delay this until the election 2028. But that, my friends, will be the very last chance for the American Empire.
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 2:41 am
by Kraken
Lagom Lite wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 2:33 am
The American resistance
I made this thread because there isn't one. Or if there is, I can't find it or figure out how to join.
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 2:57 am
by Daehawk
4 years. I hope we make it.
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 3:18 am
by Lagom Lite
Also, lol at the idea of withholding taxes. That's such a lazy, liberal idea. You need to organize properly, dinguses. Boycotting won't work this time.
Lagom Lite wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 2:33 am
The American resistance
I made this thread because there isn't one. Or if there is, I can't find it or figure out how to join.
Don't underestimate yourselves. Americans have been known to come together in times of crises.
Also, that's loser talk. You're not losers are you?
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 4:40 am
by LawBeefaroni
TSLA needs to get Enroned. It is as much a house of cards as other the epic fraud. All of Musk's power is derived from his wealth and most of his wealth is derived from TSLAs share price. His run in the White House is the final stage of "fake it til you make it". One he gains control of regulatory agencies, he will have moved from fake to made.
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 5:46 am
by Victoria Raverna
Time to test the 2nd amendment?
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:46 am
by hepcat
No
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 9:41 am
by Zarathud
Withholding taxes and failing to pay will result in large fines, penalties, and interest. The libertarian “sovereign citizen” movement tried it and lost hard in the courts. Besides, Republicans don’t care about deficits in their own administrations.
If you want to resist, help puncture the MAGA bubble and criticize Trump — especially the fake image of him as a competent leader that he’s relying on from his time on reality TV. The robber barons were stopped by outrage from journalism exposing the excesses and unfortunately economic hardship that turned voters out. It took siding with the common man and adopting popular reforms to fix the economic inequity to fix the situation.
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 10:36 am
by LawBeefaroni
Flood the zone with legal challenges. It's the last available step before flooding the zone with active resistance.
Find an organization that is challenging the regime.
Personally I'm looking at Public Citizen and may throw some of my cartridge box money to their jury box work..
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 10:52 am
by Lagom Lite
Also, consider this: You need to unite. "You" being regular working people. Doesn't matter if you were one of the tens of millions of suckers who were duped into voting for Trump. If a former Trump voter comes to you, regrets their decision and wants to join the fight, you let them.
Keep your eye on the enemy. Know who the enemy is. It's not your idiot neighbor.
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 10:56 am
by Lagom Lite
Victoria Raverna wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 5:46 am
Time to test the 2nd amendment?
I'd probably buy a gun and get some lessons for self-defense, should some MAGA fanatics take issue with your movement and try to hurt you or your family.
But no, no violence from your end. Never. That would only play into Trump/Musks hands. They're looking for an excuse to institute martial law.
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 11:46 am
by Unagi
Victoria Raverna wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 5:46 am
Time to test the 2nd amendment?
Is that your opinion, or is that just you baiting people? again
Or, let me guess... it's just an honest question that you just don't know the answer to. Just asking questions...
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 11:50 am
by Smoove_B
Victoria Raverna wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 5:46 am
Time to test the 2nd amendment?
Some have argued it's already been tested; tyranny has won.
This should mean that in the future we cannot argue the 2A exists to prevent tyranny and reasonable limits on gun ownership are acceptable. But that doesn't matter anymore.
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 11:52 am
by Smoove_B
On topic - I have no idea. Other than what I've suggested before - picking an issue (just one) and following/supporting it (likely by donating to a cause that fights for it) is all I can think to do in terms of taking a specific action. But honestly, it doesn't feel like enough.
Victoria Raverna wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 5:46 am
Time to test the 2nd amendment?
I'd probably buy a gun and get some lessons for self-defense, should some MAGA fanatics take issue with your movement and try to hurt you or your family.
But no, no violence from your end. Never. That would only play into Trump/Musks hands. They're looking for an excuse to institute martial law.
I can see the WaPo headline now: Martial Law - How To Not Panic and Cope With It.
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 12:01 pm
by raydude
Truth, Knowledge, and Communication. Given that a lot of regulatory agencies are being gutted and information usually put out is being muted, it's important to get the word out more than ever.
I'm thinking along the lines of - if you see something regional, like rising Covid cases or bird flu infecting humans, get the word out to here so we can get the word out to our family and friends. We can't wait for the national news cycle to notify us and it seems even some traditional sources of information (looking at you Wapo) may be compromised.
Also, given the breadth of knowledge base here it would be good to get clarification on stuff we should be outraged about vs. things that sound bad but are actually not really. I'm looking at the lawyers, health experts, and people like that.
For example: the current lawsuit against disability protections. I asked this in the "Apprentice 2.0" thread but it got lost: what happens if the judge declares Section 504 unconstitutional? Does that mean only the current version with Biden's insertion of gender dysphoria is unconstitutional? Do we revert back to an older Section 504? Information on that would help push back against the (assumed) misinformation being put out by the AGs of these states. It also helps answer the question of whether or not this is legitimate outrage and something we should protest against.
Victoria Raverna wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 5:46 am
Time to test the 2nd amendment?
Is that your opinion, or is that just you baiting people? again
Or, let me guess... it's just an honest question that you just don't know the answer to. Just asking questions...
I'd say it's a valid question.
I think I've said that it's my belief that it's one of the intentions of the 2nd.
That being said, 2 tjings.
1. As bad as it is, we aren't there yet. No matter how bad we think it's getting we MUST at minimum wait until lawful resolutions run their course. Otherwise we will turn into those we are trying to stop.
2. Realistically, the ones most likely to do so, are on the other side of the fence for the most part. Democrats are generally against guns so what are the chances that they have, know how to use, and are willing to use huns or violence to achieve a reverse coup?
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 1:27 pm
by ImLawBoy
raydude wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 12:01 pm
For example: the current lawsuit against disability protections. I asked this in the "Apprentice 2.0" thread but it got lost: what happens if the judge declares Section 504 unconstitutional? Does that mean only the current version with Biden's insertion of gender dysphoria is unconstitutional? Do we revert back to an older Section 504? Information on that would help push back against the (assumed) misinformation being put out by the AGs of these states. It also helps answer the question of whether or not this is legitimate outrage and something we should protest against.
I'm not an expert here, but I dabble in disability advocacy. If the suit were limited to claiming that gender dysphoria is not a disability, that would be bad, but largely for those who have gender dysphoria and their loved ones. If the suit succeeds in claiming that Section 504 is unconstitutional as a whole, that would be devastating to the disability community on a massive scale. It's part of a larger effort to gut/eliminate the American with Disabilities Act. Keen observers may have noted that a lot right wing talk these days isn't about DEI, it's about DEIA. That extra A is Accessibility, and is a direct attack on protections for people with disabilities.
This is an issue to get up in arms about, and opposition may actually gain some traction. Many people who are MAGA have loved ones with disabilities (my wife had to disassociate herself some time ago from a moms' support group because so many were pro-Trump) who haven't yet realized that the leopards are eyeing their faces. People with disabilities are often quite sympathetic, and I have to believe public opinion would be on their sides.
Personally, I do pro bono work with special education, elder, and disability rights, and I also serve on the board of a non-profit that provides legal services to low income seniors and people with disabilities. You don't have to be a lawyer to make a difference in this arena, though. This is one area where discussions with MAGA and MAGA-sympathetic people, as unpleasant as it may seem, may actually have an impact - especially for those with loved ones who are disabled. And who knows? If they get a little empathy here, maybe it'll take seed and grow. (OK, wishful thinking on my part.)
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 1:48 pm
by Unagi
Punisher wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 1:25 pm
I think I've said that it's my belief that it's one of the intentions of the 2nd.
Yeah, it says so on the label.
I don't think you and I are speaking to the same level of the topic.
3. Any armed insurgency would be utterly crushed by the US Army.
raydude wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 12:01 pm
For example: the current lawsuit against disability protections. I asked this in the "Apprentice 2.0" thread but it got lost: what happens if the judge declares Section 504 unconstitutional? Does that mean only the current version with Biden's insertion of gender dysphoria is unconstitutional? Do we revert back to an older Section 504? Information on that would help push back against the (assumed) misinformation being put out by the AGs of these states. It also helps answer the question of whether or not this is legitimate outrage and something we should protest against.
I'm not an expert here, but I dabble in disability advocacy. If the suit were limited to claiming that gender dysphoria is not a disability, that would be bad, but largely for those who have gender dysphoria and their loved ones. If the suit succeeds in claiming that Section 504 is unconstitutional as a whole, that would be devastating to the disability community on a massive scale. It's part of a larger effort to gut/eliminate the American with Disabilities Act. Keen observers may have noted that a lot right wing talk these days isn't about DEI, it's about DEIA. That extra A is Accessibility, and is a direct attack on protections for people with disabilities.
This is an issue to get up in arms about, and opposition may actually gain some traction. Many people who are MAGA have loved ones with disabilities (my wife had to disassociate herself some time ago from a moms' support group because so many were pro-Trump) who haven't yet realized that the leopards are eyeing their faces. People with disabilities are often quite sympathetic, and I have to believe public opinion would be on their sides.
Personally, I do pro bono work with special education, elder, and disability rights, and I also serve on the board of a non-profit that provides legal services to low income seniors and people with disabilities. You don't have to be a lawyer to make a difference in this arena, though. This is one area where discussions with MAGA and MAGA-sympathetic people, as unpleasant as it may seem, may actually have an impact - especially for those with loved ones who are disabled. And who knows? If they get a little empathy here, maybe it'll take seed and grow. (OK, wishful thinking on my part.)
Thank you for this information! I recall reading somewhere that one of the AG's in the suit was arguing that they were only asking for the current version of Section 504 to be scrapped, hence my question about whether that's how the law works - i.e. scrapping a current version means you automatically go back to an earlier version. Sounds like this is not the case and is absolutely a smokescreen to placate the general public.
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 1:59 pm
by ImLawBoy
To be clear, I haven't read the suit and I don't know specifically what they're requesting. The article made it appear that they are claiming 504 as a whole is unconstitutional. I think that if that is result of the suit, 504 goes away - I don't know that there is a prior version to "roll back" to. In any event, I do see it as part of larger attack on disability rights in general.
By the way, if anyone has a kid who has a "504 plan" at school - that's the same 504.
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 2:46 pm
by Zarathud
The AGs are inviting an over expansive, activist ruling by testing the waters on 504 disability accommodation. Targeting trans people is just the easiest minority to oppress.
It’s part of the larger Project 2025 plan. States depend on Department of Education funding assistance to comply with the requirements of 504. That legitimate purpose may limit their ability to abolish the DOE, so they’re hoping to get lucky.
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 3:21 pm
by gbasden
ImLawBoy wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 1:27 pm
Personally, I do pro bono work with special education, elder, and disability rights, and I also serve on the board of a non-profit that provides legal services to low income seniors and people with disabilities. You don't have to be a lawyer to make a difference in this arena, though. This is one area where discussions with MAGA and MAGA-sympathetic people, as unpleasant as it may seem, may actually have an impact - especially for those with loved ones who are disabled. And who knows? If they get a little empathy here, maybe it'll take seed and grow. (OK, wishful thinking on my part.)
A lot of the MAGA leadership is pretty open about embracing eugenics, and unfortunately that worldview has no use for disabled people. It's gross and disgusting and totally on point for these asshats.
Archinerd wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 12:48 am
I'm considering NOT e-filing my federal taxes this year, and instead sending them through the US Postal Service. It will be legal and may be nearly as good as not paying them at all if the trend continues.
I did the opposite. I filed as soon as possible because I had a solar credit due and was worried Trump would rescind that program. Got paid today!
I hope you get it. I've heard of one incident where the money is being clawed back even after the money has been deposited into the account.
I don't know many specifics on this exact circumstance, but I do know it's against a company and they are considering their legal options and the consequences of not giving the money back.
ImLawBoy wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 1:27 pm
Personally, I do pro bono work with special education, elder, and disability rights, and I also serve on the board of a non-profit that provides legal services to low income seniors and people with disabilities. You don't have to be a lawyer to make a difference in this arena, though. This is one area where discussions with MAGA and MAGA-sympathetic people, as unpleasant as it may seem, may actually have an impact - especially for those with loved ones who are disabled. And who knows? If they get a little empathy here, maybe it'll take seed and grow. (OK, wishful thinking on my part.)
A lot of the MAGA leadership is pretty open about embracing eugenics, and unfortunately that worldview has no use for disabled people. It's gross and disgusting and totally on point for these asshats.
Yeah, you're not going to convince your Randian Objectivists or full-on Nazis. Where you may have some success is with Grandma and Grandpa who are worried about all of that Fentanyl lying around in school bathroom kitty litter boxes who also have a grandchild with Downs Syndrome or who is on the autism spectrum.
Punisher wrote: Fri Feb 21, 2025 1:25 pm
I think I've said that it's my belief that it's one of the intentions of the 2nd.
Yeah, it says so on the label.
I don't think you and I are speaking to the same level of the topic.
3. Any armed insurgency would be utterly crushed by the US Army.
1st, if you're referring to my username I can state for a fact that I have never gone around killing criminals. Not even people who call it pork roll.
As for 3.
I'm not convinced.
It would really depend on how many people rose up.
For a full blown revolution I guarantee that you will have plenty of military who refuse to fire on their friends, family, and neighbors.
Then, I also don't think that they'll want to start carpet bombing towns. It would mostly be house to house fighting which would limit the militarys abilities.
It also depends on who rises up. A revolution in NJ will be different from a revolution in TX for example.
It will also depend on how it starts. Right now, there are still avenues for the law to take. A revolution right now probably wouldn't gain momentum.
If it happens after the rule of law is confirmed as gone, and especially if the majority of the public, including the people backing Trump start getting their faces eaten, it would be different.
It might not even need for the revolution to take over. If enough people join, it may be as simple as the other leadership taking direct action just to make sure they aren't targets.
But again, we have a ways to go begore I'd say it's time.
Additionly, I am in no shape to join something like that. I could probably defend my home from looters and such if need be but I'm not running through the streets fighting.
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:39 pm
by Unagi
Yes
TLDR
It all depends
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2025 8:48 pm
by Holman
I don't know if it will mean much, but I'll be attending a mass rally against Trump and against Kings/Dictators/Authoritarians a week from tomorrow in Philadelphia at the site of the Declaration of Independence.
March 1 at 1:11pm, Independence Hall.
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2025 9:52 am
by Unagi
I've never watched her before - but she had a lot of things to say about handling 'MAGA' that I (for the most part) agree with:
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2025 11:11 am
by $iljanus
I'm going to have to use "Shitler Youth" more often in casual conversation.
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2025 11:18 am
by Hipolito
I recently attended a protest rally. I recommend doing so if you have the opportunity. It feels good to stand with others and yell anti-nazi slogans in unison. You'll feel less sad and might even make a god-damned difference.
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2025 11:33 am
by LordMortis
Not exactly sure it's a good thing but she speaks my truth. The last decade has seen me move at quickening pace toward her camp and I joined on Jan 20th, not even really wanting to. I thought I was heading to a more "sociable" space in December but then the flurry started on day one and I still can't talk to anyone who gave a nod to where we were and are heading (and that includes my parents. If they need me I'll come running but I just can't just talk to them. That hurts and is shameful. They really aren't bad and are actually very charitable but at least on the surface... Eggs, which makes no sense. They can afford eggs. Live life and have the damned eggs at prices people suffering can't actually afford. Which suggests to me there is more going on. And to add to her sentiment. He not only voted for Trump. He did at least three times and knew his history well enough for at least two of them).
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2025 2:11 pm
by $iljanus
Being a former scientist I'm going to try and attend with my fellow brethren in this year's March for Science in Boston. https://standupforscience2025.org/
Re: Fighting back
Posted: Sat Feb 22, 2025 11:17 pm
by Kraken
Unagi wrote: Sat Feb 22, 2025 9:52 am
I've never watched her before - but she had a lot of things to say about handling 'MAGA' that I (for the most part) agree with:
She's convincing. "Fuck that doofus" is a cry I can rally to.