Are we causing PC gaming DOOOOOOMMMMM?

[lokiju]

I was just wondering how much effect we have on the PC gaming industry total sales by trading all our games to each other? Taking into account other sites like CG as well? How ebay sales?

Without the above, would the PC gaming industry sell 2x more games?

Things I ponder before I fall asleep at night...

[Blackhawk]

Resale of used merchandise is a fact of life for practically every product based business in the world. Cars, DVDs, clothing, music, furniture, appliances, electronics, everything. Yeah, profits might go up if 'used' went away, but that applies to pretty much everything else, too. It shouldn't affect their business plan, because their business plan should have taken a standard business practice like that into account to begin with.

[ChrisGwinn]

Well, considering how much money I still spend on new games... Not a whole lot for me.

[baron calamity]

Without the above, would the PC gaming industry sell 2x more games?

So in theory would console games. The truth is, we would probably just play less

[lokiju]

Well, considering how much money I still spend on new games... Not a whole lot for me.

I guess that's why I considered this in the first place. 95% of my gaming comes from freebies, trades, and used sales. I will not change this because I need to save money, even though I know it would be better for the developers if I bought new.

[Windows95]

For cool niche titles from small developers I try to make a point in buying the game new so that I can let them know I want to see more of that game. Otherwise I don't see a problem buying/selling used games.

[ChrisGwinn]

For cool niche titles from small developers I try to make a point in buying the game new so that I can let them know I want to see more of that game. Otherwise I don't see a problem buying/selling used games.

I do the same.

[Ripstar]

I buy quite a few new titles every year and usually only trade for something that is hard to find or no longer being made. So the gaming industry isn't suffering from buyers like me.

[Jeff V]

I've never traded a game before.

[lokiju]

Heh, I get that "You're theory is hogwash" feeling.

[Jaymann]

Heh, I get that "You're theory is hogwash" feeling.

No, but your theiry is.

[Davaris]

Are we causing PC gaming DOOOOOOMMMMM?

Absolutely.

If you like a game genre and want to play more of that type of game you should buy your games new. Don't buy them second hand, trade or pirate them. When you do this the developers get nothing for their work and will have no reason to make more of the types of games you like.

Have you noticed there aren't many RPGs being made? They are the hardest and most expensive types of games to make and they don't sell very well because so many people think its okay to pirate games.

Currently the most profitable types of games are targeted at casual gamers. These are the types of games you can learn after reading a single paragraph. They are easy (and inexpensive) to make and this is part of the reason why they are so profitable. The other reason is the types of gamers that like them aren't savy enough to pirate games.

[lokiju]

Are we causing PC gaming DOOOOOOMMMMM?

Absolutely.

If you like a game genre and want to play more of that type of game you should buy your games new. Don't buy them second hand, trade or pirate them. When you do this the developers get nothing for their work and will have no reason to make more of the types of games you like.

Have you noticed there aren't many RPGs being made? They are the hardest and most expensive types of games to make and they don't sell very well because so many people think its okay to pirate games.

Currently the most profitable types of games are targeted at casual gamers. These are the types of games you can learn after reading a single paragraph. They are easy (and inexpensive) to make and this is part of the reason why they are so profitable. The other reason is the types of gamers that like them aren't savy enough to pirate games.

Heh, not that your opinion is biased in any way.

I have never heard of your game, though it looks sweet. I am downloading the demo now. If I like you, you'll have my money.

[Peacedog]

If you like a game genre and want to play more of that type of game you should buy your games new. Don't buy them second hand, trade or pirate them. When you do this the developers get nothing for their work and will have no reason to make more of the types of games you like.

It would seem that the standard state of affairs for a "typical" developer is such that on B&M purchases, they either 1) aren't getting much from it anyway or 2) aren't getting any (and they got on the selling to the retailer - I've never been clear if the royalty was generated there or in the sale to the customer, or if it varied).

Different for a true Indy dev, to be sure.

[Blackhawk]

Have you noticed there aren't many RPGs being made? They are the hardest and most expensive types of games to make and they don't sell very well because so many people think its okay to pirate games.

I'm not sure I agree with this example. How does people thinking it is OK to pirate games make RPGs disappear, but not all of the other types of pirated games? Shooters these days have the biggest budgets, and people who think it is OK to pirate RPGs think it is OK to pirate shooters, too, and given the average intellect of end-user warez'ers, I'd say that a Doom or Half Life would lose more sales to piracy than a Baldur's Gate. I'm not saying piracy doesn't hurt, just that I'm not sure the example you gave holds up.

Otherwise, to reiterate what I said earlier, used and second hand sales are an absolute standard part of business for every other product that it is possible to transfer. Why should game developers be an exception to a standard rule of business?

[Davaris]

It would seem that the standard state of affairs for a "typical" developer is such that on B&M purchases, they either 1) aren't getting much from it anyway or 2) aren't getting any (and they got on the selling to the retailer - I've never been clear if the royalty was generated there or in the sale to the customer, or if it varied).

What happens is the developer bids on a contract to make a game and they are “usually” paid for each milestone they reach. At any time the contract can be cancelled and the developers can go broke when this happens (a hell of a lot of money is needed to start and maintain a studio). So if a developer specialises in RPGs, which are very different to other games and the games they make don’t sell enough copies, then the publishers dump them. This happened to Troika games. They sold 70,000 copies of their last game and were forced to close their doors. As for getting royalties, I haven’t heard of any but the most powerful developers getting these.

I’m an Indie developer so the above doesn’t apply to me. I get whatever I sell through my site less 20%. I don’t get many sales due to the crappy graphics, but as I’m doing this in my spare time, I can afford to use the money to buy better art. Hopefully I'll be able to build it up over time.

Otherwise, to reiterate what I said earlier, used and second hand sales are an absolute standard part of business for every other product that it is possible to transfer. Why should game developers be an exception to a standard rule of business?

Software is different to any other product because any person can make as many copies of it as they want. Imagine if you bought a car and were able to sell or give away multiple copies of it to anyone? Then all of the people you gave it to could do the same thing and the spread of the car would be exponential. The obvious effect of this is the company that made the car would go bankrupt and the technological advancement of all cars would halt.

Shooters these days have the biggest budgets, and people who think it is OK to pirate RPGs think it is OK to pirate shooters

Yes shooters are in the class of casual games. Casual games are designed so anyone can learn to play them in 5 or 10 minutes. So yes Pirates pirate shooters, but people who don't know much about computers or pirating buy them.

[edosan]

Otherwise, to reiterate what I said earlier, used and second hand sales are an absolute standard part of business for every other product that it is possible to transfer. Why should game developers be an exception to a standard rule of business?

Software is different to any other product because any person can make as many copies of it as they want. Imagine if you bought a car and were able to sell or give away multiple copies of it to anyone? Then all of the people you gave it to could do the same thing and the spread of the car would be exponential. The obvious effect of this is the company that made the car would go bankrupt and the technological advancement of all cars would halt.

Your argument makes sense for piracy, and I don't think anyone here would disagree with you. However, the original question was not about piracy but about used legit software. Blackhawk is right -- you can buy used cars, books, clothes, lawn furniture -- I don't see any of those industries worrying about the secondhand market.

[Peacedog]

What happens is the developer bids on a contract to make a game and they are “usually” paid for each milestone they reach. At any time the contract can be cancelled and the developers can go broke when this happens (a hell of a lot of money is needed to start and maintain a studio). So if a developer specialises in RPGs, which are very different to other games and the games they make don’t sell enough copies, then the publishers dump them. This happened to Troika games. They sold 70,000 copies of their last game and were forced to close their doors. As for getting royalties, I haven’t heard of any but the most powerful developers getting these.

Then trading games isn't goingt to affect these people as much. It's only going to hurt sell-through numbers (I think that's what it's called when it's sold to the customer?), but I question how much it will do that.

Of course, the moral of the story here is that the retail model sucks anyway.

I’m an Indie developer so the above doesn’t apply to me. I get whatever I sell through my site less 20%. I don’t get many sales due to the crappy graphics, but as I’m doing this in my spare time, I can afford to use the money to buy better art. Hopefully I'll be able to build it up over time.

Do you ship a physical disk? If not, you've probably reduced your game's tradeability anyhow. Vogel optionally offers CD's for a little extra; I'd love to hear how often people take advantage of it. But I suspect they are a minority.

It's true that a trade (or a piracy) hurts you much more than it does, say, Id. But trading goods is a fact of life. It's true that someone who trades for a game can makle copies of it - ut so can someone who buys it. Most people who are going to be trading your games are going to be honest folk, and not inclined to do these things.

If you get ravaged by illegal copies springing up, you have my sympathies (Vogel once mentioned in an interview that during the Exile beta, someone posted his registration code online and it was a pretty severe problem).

However, game trades are not responsible for your troubles. Asshats are. One day, when I'm god-emporer of the known cosmos, we will have the technology to remove them from the equation. Until then you have to grit your teeth, set your shoulders, and endure. If you make a quality product, there are people out there who will buy it and play it and you just might do ok for yourself (there are a few people here who like to trumpet games from the "little guys", and there are probably a few at Qt3 as well).

[Blackhawk]

Exactly. I was commenting on the topic of used software, not piracy. The question was whether used sales hurt software; I replied that it doesn't because it is a normal part of the business model.

[JayG]

Are we causing PC gaming DOOOOOOMMMMM?

Absolutely.

If you like a game genre and want to play more of that type of game you should buy your games new. Don't buy them second hand, trade or pirate them. When you do this the developers get nothing for their work and will have no reason to make more of the types of games you like.

Have you noticed there aren't many RPGs being made? They are the hardest and most expensive types of games to make and they don't sell very well because so many people think its okay to pirate games.

Currently the most profitable types of games are targeted at casual gamers. These are the types of games you can learn after reading a single paragraph. They are easy (and inexpensive) to make and this is part of the reason why they are so profitable. The other reason is the types of gamers that like them aren't savy enough to pirate games.

Do you have any evidence for this? From what I can see RPGs sell pretty well. Dungeon Lords actually made the US sales top 10, which considering how bad it is is pretty amazing. The Neverwinter Nights series seems to have sold very well, same with KOTOR, and the German sales of Gothic alone are enough for a third part to be made. Fallout 3 and BG 3 were cancelled in favour of console variants, and look how that turned out for Interplay.

[The Meal]

I think the (highly generalized) chain goes:

RPG -> gamers with long attention spans [1]
gamers with long attention spans -> older gamers [2]
older gamers -> folks who have shifting priorities [3]
shifting priorities -> less time to game [4]
less gaming time -> fewer gaming purchases.

I know that's how its worked for me at least.

[1] Relatively. A RPG demands more attention span than FPS games or RTS games or many of the other gaming genres out there. Additionally (and not listed in my generalized chart) RPGs tend to demand *more* time for the end user. And if you agree with the premise that RPGs appeal to older gamers with shifting priorities, then these games that demand more time are being sold to folks who have *less* time to play them.
[2] Very much a generalization. I know lots of old dude who love the twitch games that don't demand long attention spans. And I know there are plenty of young gamers here who love the in-depth RPG worlds. But I'm generalizing here.
[3] Again, a generalization. Not everyone loses gaming as a priority as they get older. Personally, I haven't lost it as a priority all the time, but there are periods of life (that wane and wax) when I game a lot and when I game very little. Those periods of little gaming didn't exist when I was younger.
[4] More generalization, although I'm sure there are some people out there who's shifting priorities have created *more* gaming time. I'd contend there are fewer of those types of people than there are the opposite.

~Neal

[The Preacher]

I think those are generalizations, Neal.

[Davaris]

Do you ship a physical disk? If not, you've probably reduced your game's tradeability anyhow. Vogel optionally offers CD's for a little extra; I'd love to hear how often people take advantage of it. But I suspect they are a minority.

No not at the moment because the game is improving all the time. I let my players get the latest versions free, as some of them like to play it more than once with different character types. Of course only the guys that bought the game new get this service.

[edosan]

...I let my players get the latest versions free, as some of them like to play it more than once with different character types. Of course only the guys that bought the game new get this service.

Positive reinforcement is good. I think this is the only worthwhile way to keep piracy down. The carrot, not the stick. Punishing people with copy protection only pisses off people that bought the game. Make it worth their while to buy the game and they will but don't punish people for not having the "right" cd-rom drive or an always-on internet connection.

[Blackhawk]

Good approach. Copy protection doesn't bug pirates in the least - that's part of being a pirate. Arrr.

Since copy protection doesn't bug pirates, what possible motivation would a pirate have to get a $50 version over a free one?

The answer that makes most sense in the fight against piracy is to give legitimate customers a bonus, something pirates can't have. In lots of cases, this is key-based multiplayer. In other cases it is something that comes with an account tied to a key. Hell, the best thing would be more box contents, not less - a fantastic manual, a couple of paper maps, a tchotke - these kinds of things make commercial versions more attractive than pirated versions. When it is two CDs in paper envelopes, why would the pirates think twice about saving $50?

[edosan]

Hell, the best thing would be more box contents, not less - a fantastic manual, a couple of paper maps, a tchotke...

I've often thought that if game companies really wanted to fight piracy instead on just whining about it, the return of good paper manuals would be a step in the right direction.

[Peacedog]

the return of good paper manuals would be a step in the right direction.

They cost money. Rising development costs are one of the biggest problems in the industry. Now, they don't cost as much as alot of things. But it's not surprising to see them get cut as a result.

Besides, game box sizes these days does crimp their style somewhat. More importantly, you can't download a paper manual.