Wargames

Dirt · Post by **Dirt** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:52 pm

I've tried to get into wargames in the past but I've never could. I'm kind of enjoying Hearts of Iron, I hear it's even better with the patch. I own West Front and East Front II but couldn't get into them for some reason. Anyone know of a game that would be considered a true wargame but is easier to get into? Or maybe a FAQ that I can read to help me get started in getting into the intracacies of a wargame?

raydude · Post by **raydude** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:22 pm

Part of the difficulty could be that, the higher in size and scope that a wargame gets, the more the burden is placed on the player to imagine what is going on.

Usually the size and scope of a wargame is defined by terms like 'tactical, operations, strategic'. These words describe the scope of the battles, size of the units, length of turns, etc. In general the operational and strategic level games use one counter to represent hundreds or thousands of troops, and turns usually represent several hours or even 1 day.

However, tactical level wargames are a bit easier to digest. That tank on the screen usually represents one tank. A figure may represent a squad of men, but that's easier to imagine.

It would be hard to recommend a wargame unless you identify what it is that you are looking for. Size and scope would be a start, as would the theater of preference (pacific vs. europe vs. north africa).

But, based on the assumption that you might find it easier to get into a tactical wargame, I would suggest any of the Combat Mission games. The downloads are available from battlefront.com and there are several opponents here that would be up for a PBEM game.

In fact, I'm involved with three of them at the moment.

Ray

Dirt · Post by **Dirt** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:24 pm

I've heard much on Combat Misson, everyone raves about it. It does sound somewhat like Jagged Alliance or Silent Storm except with tanks though. Would that be a fair assessment?

raydude · Post by **raydude** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:22 pm

Dirt wrote:I've heard much on Combat Misson, everyone raves about it. It does sound somewhat like Jagged Alliance or Silent Storm except with tanks though. Would that be a fair assessment?

Having never played Silent Storm I can only say that CM resembles JA on the surface and only in a few ways. Both are turn-based, both model cover and the stance of the unit when determining line-of-sight, chance to hit, and hit location.

You would be better off downloading the demos. Then figure out from those whether or not CM is your cup of tea.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:36 pm

Dirt wrote:I've heard much on Combat Misson, everyone raves about it. It does sound somewhat like Jagged Alliance or Silent Storm except with tanks though. Would that be a fair assessment?

Not entirely. Combat Mission is pure historical - it is very accurate, not actiony like JA or SS. The system is also a bit different.

Imagine playing Silent Storm. Instead of each character taking a turn one by one, you give all of your characters their orders - move here, fire at this bad guy - but none of them actually move. At the same time your opponent (or the AI) does the same. Then you hit 'go' and all of your troops, and all of theirs move at the same time for one minute. The game then pauses and you do it again.

da Toad · Post by **da Toad** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 3:24 am

If you can't get into East/West font, I'd stay away from Combat Mission for a while. CM is a complex game and heavy on micromanagement via a frequently annoying interface (not that HoI isn't).

My personal recomendation would be to pick up a Panzer General game. The earlier the better. If you can't find PG, Massive Assault plays scary close.

If you're not married to the WWII setting, abstract wargaming used to the be "gateway drug" to "grognard class wargaming". These are games where you have "light tank" and "heavy tank" as opposed to 4 variants of the PzIII. Sadly, this subgenre seems to have fallen out of vogue in turn based gaming. Massive Assault comes to mind again...

Here's a few easier wargames that come to mind, that I haven't mentioned already:

Empire - This is perhaps where most of us older gamers started. World wide abstract wargaming with a random map generator. Creator Walter Bright has been beyond kind in releasing this games as freeware at http://www.classicempire.com/

People's Tactics - A recent freeware game. Features abstract units and company based movement. The AI is a little weak. http://www.reijkersz.nl/peoplestactics/

Strategic Command - Another classic from Battlefront.com. Operational level WWII combat the way SSI used to make games.

Anything else I think of comes too close to East/West Front. Go with Empire. Its free, easy to use, contains infinite variety, and should be required playing before you buy another game

Dirt · Post by **Dirt** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 3:58 am

I've been doing some research and it looks like Strategic Command 2 is right up my alley.

em2nought · Post by **em2nought** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:13 am

Dirt wrote:I've been doing some research and it looks like Strategic Command 2 is right up my alley.

And buying SC2 will be like buying alot of games for the price of one once people do total conversion mods.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:37 am

The secret to "getting into" wargames is to get into the subject matter a particular game is based on. Wargames generally aren't self-contained worlds conveying an engaging plot and story on their own - they are simulations of actual or approximated events, and knowing what happened--what strategies, tactics and doctrines were used--is almost essential when it comes to appreciating (or criticizing) them.

My advice is to pick a subject you want to learn more about, read some books on it, THEN try to play wargames dealing with that topic. FWIW, on average I read 3 topical books for each wargame I play on the subject.

Zekester · Post by **Zekester** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:42 pm

Dirt,
want to know how much penetration in millimeters that a M1A1 Abrams tank shell does to a T72 hull?

Then buy my copy of 'Point of Attack 2'!

pad152 · Post by **pad152** » Mon Nov 22, 2004 11:02 pm

You can get demos of the different Combat Mission Games at
www. battlefront.com.

Combat Mission are truly some of the best wargames made for the computer.

knob · Post by **knob** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:20 am

Speaking of CM, check your email, Raydude. I finally sent the files, but I'm not totally sure if they went through.

Dirt · Post by **Dirt** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 2:06 am

There's actually a copy of Combat Mission at a Gamestop near me for $9.99. I think I'm definitely going to pick it up. Right now, I'm playing Strategic Command, it's fun but I'm definitely up for something with a little more meat.

raydude · Post by **raydude** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:31 am

Most excellent Valael! I'll get a turn off to you before Thanksgiving break. And Dirt, when you do get CM you should definitely think about playing PBEM with some of the folks here.

I'm in a game now w/ Napoleon, Ed X, and Valael. Separate games of course, as it's only 1 v 1. We're all cordial and still learning new tactics and capabilities as we go.

Ray

knob · Post by **knob** » Tue Nov 23, 2004 10:44 am

Dirt wrote:There's actually a copy of Combat Mission at a Gamestop near me for $9.99. I think I'm definitely going to pick it up. Right now, I'm playing Strategic Command, it's fun but I'm definitely up for something with a little more meat.

It's definitely worth it.

If you like it, you may want to consider trying to hunt down the anthology (Never released in the US). CDV.com has it, but I prefer eBay since it's cheaper.

I got mine for about $30 shipped. You get all 3 games with it.

Spike · Post by **Spike** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:56 am

Go ask this on The Wargamer.

I must agree on Combat Mission, though: everyone says it's the one for getting into 'real' wargames. Silent Storm and the like aren't realistic, but are lots of fun.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:40 am

Spike wrote:Go ask this on The Wargamer.

I must agree on Combat Mission, though: everyone says it's the one for getting into 'real' wargames. Silent Storm and the like aren't realistic, but are lots of fun.

I rather disagree - CM is only "the one" if you're into a very specific niche - tactical WW2 ETO. If one is interested in operational, strategic, or other periods of warfare, CM definitely would not fit the bill.

Spike · Post by **Spike** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 7:48 am

Jeff V wrote:I rather disagree - CM is only "the one" if you're into a very specific niche - tactical WW2 ETO. If one is interested in operational, strategic, or other periods of warfare, CM definitely would not fit the bill.

Absolutely correct, as usual.

I was going on the original post which included East Front and so on. It is a very good title for seeing 'real' wargames, as in accurate ones, if one is interested in the period, though.

Is there an equivalent 'real' title for ancients, by the way, Jeff?

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 2:22 pm

Spike wrote:Is there an equivalent 'real' title for ancients, by the way, Jeff?

Most of the ancients stuff is pretty much abstracted. RTW is too limited, and it's nearly impossible to maintain historical formations. The Great Battles series had some flawed elements (for instance, it was impossible to use phalynx units the way the were employed), but is probably the best effort to date. Tin Soldiers is a highly-abstracted miniatures style that fails to adequately convey the scope of some of these battles. The Slitherine games are to authentic combat as electric vibrating football tables are to playing the actual sport.

A good game would combine the graphic spendor of RTW, the set-piece aspect of the GB series, and the inexact control of the Slitherine games. These battles weren't disorganized chaos - both sides usually went in with a plan (or a doctrinal default behavior in the case of Roman legions). Commanders do have the ability to make some adjustments after the battle is joined. An ideal game, I think, would allow the players to set scripted orders for each unit prior to battle (or accept doctrinal defaults). When a unit is engaged, it cannot be issued new orders. Commanders can rally troops, or issue orders to fresh troops or those that have routed their opponents and are disengaged.

The acid test for any ancients game is the effectiveness of phalanx troops. They really should be almost invincable head-on, but vulnerable on the flanks or rear. The GB series almost had it right, but they almost always suffered SOME damage in a head-on clash, and consquently were far more fragile than they should have been, making them a liability rather than an asset in combat.