The In Praise Of Buffy Thread.

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:50 pm

So yeah, I think maybe back in the Gone Gold days, I posted a thread shortly after the dvd release of Buffy Season 1, saying "Hey, this is pretty good, I *get* this show now."

Yeah, maybe not. I managed to get through the end of the 12-episode first season, and then moved on. I think I intended at some point to watch further adventures of Buffy, but the more I looked back on the show, the more I became convinced that it probably wasn't as good as my initial impresssions.

So, about three weeks ago, I started watching season one again. There's definitely some good things going on, but also a lot of not so good things. It's uneven. I'll leave it at that.

And so iTunes and Amazon have the entire season 2 available for digital download now, so I decided to take a chance. The first episode of season 2 is kinda "meh". It takes a little time for season 2 to find it's bearings....

...and then it sorta explodes into one of the best single seasons of television I've seen. Holy hell, NOW I GET IT!

The interaction between Buffy and Angel might be enough. The romantic interaction between the various team members (trying not to be too spoiler-y here) is awesome.

But really, what makes Season 2 (and hopefully Season 3, which I start on when I get home, thanks to the DVD's arriving via Amazon this afternoon) go way, way, way beyond the first season is the quality of the villains. Spike and Drusilla are simply the real folk blues, baby. "The Master" of season one was a laughably unworthy foe for Buffy and friends. He was an inept idiot. "The Anointed One" wasn't much better. Ooh, scary. Little kid in sneakers.

Spike and Drusilla though? They're the anti-Buffy, just as clever and driven as she is, as mean-spirited and evil as she is good. The final episode when Spike explains why he actually *likes* the world and doesn't want to destroy it is so pragmatically beyond evil that it made me think "yeah, if I was a vampire, that's exactly how I'd be too...."

Anyway, if you haven't yet discovered the wonderfulness of Buffy, or if like me you stupidly only watched the first season, do yourself a favor: get going on season 2. It's rare to see a show get so many things right all at the same time.

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:57 pm

In a word: yes.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:57 pm

I believe they had put out the entire seven seasons in one spiffy box.

You know what's fun?

When you get to the point where Angel and Buffy were both on,
alternating the episodes.

JonathanStrange · Post by **JonathanStrange** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:58 pm

I am an enthusiastic Buffy fan from the beginning although my ardor waned towards the last season - it seemed the less SMG liked being on the show, the less I liked her being on the show. Anyhoo...

I admire your courage at admitting your belated love for the show. If I had posted this, I think I'd get one of those "Welcome to last year(s)" photos.

Chaz · Post by **Chaz** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:01 pm

If you liked season 2, you'll love season 3. I actually prefer season 2 to 3, but season 3 is technically much better. Fewer one-off episodes, more consistent pacing within episodes, and within the season as a whole, tighter writing. My liking season 2 better is mostly because I think that while it's much more inconsistent, it hits such phenomenal highs that it makes up for it.

Also, you should definitely check out Angel. It's equally good, and unlike Buffy, constantly gets better as it goes along. Buffy's quality starts to taper off after season 4. Not saying don't watch all of Buffy, because even bad Buffy is still pretty damn good, but it gets slightly less good.

Welcome to the Wheadon fan club.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:03 pm

The funny thing for me is that I came late as well.

My friends were making plans to get together and watch it.
My wife watched it and caught episodes on reruns late night.

A friend finally sent her Hush and Once More With Feeling on tape.

I watched part of those and decided 30-40 bux for 22 episodes wasn't
out of hand.

We have all 7 buffy and all 5 angel.

(of course, she's a nut so she also has the Smile Time Puppets... )

triggercut · Post by **triggercut** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:10 pm

Just tell me, without excessive spoilage, that Spike returns for future episodes. Seriously, when he was onscreen it was like the whole show started sparking and cracking. What a great, great character, and the dude who plays him nails it to the hilt.

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:13 pm

triggercut wrote:Just tell me, without excessive spoilage, that Spike returns for future episodes. Seriously, when he was onscreen it was like the whole show started sparking and cracking. What a great, great character, and the dude who plays him nails it to the hilt.

Spike returns for future episodes.

Hamlet3145 · Post by **Hamlet3145** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:25 pm

Just tell me, without excessive spoilage, that Spike returns for future episodes

Trig, you will NOT BELIEVE the shit they do with Spike later.

Chaz · Post by **Chaz** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:01 am

Yeah, Spike definitely makes a triumphant return. I cheered when I saw him again.

rrmorton · Post by **rrmorton** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:16 am

Never seen a single episode. Always meant to try it. I'll add it to the ever-growing list of Netflix TV shows.

(I'm on a 5-at-a-time plan right now and all 5 discs I have at home are TV series DVDs. That's nutty.)

Hell's Taco · Post by **Hell's Taco** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:09 am

As I've already expressed my hetero man-love for Spike, I will refrain from doing so again. I don't want things to get weird. But Spike makes the "occasional" appearances throughout the rest of the series.

And let me say, if you liked season two, you will love season three. (It's one of the best single seasons of television I've ever seen. And I've watched a lot of TV.) The momentum of season three will get you through season four, along with one exceptional, Emmy winning episode and the expansion of the role of the character of Anya (that's not a spoiler).
You'll make it through season five despite a major (and I mean major) addition to the show because of some exceptional episodes and, of course, more Anya (did I mention that Anya is my second favorite character on Buffy.)
Things get a little more dicey after this (many say things get dicey after season three, but I give the show a little more leeway), season six has some very good episode and, in fact, the episode that many consider to be the best Buffy episode of all.
And, finally we get to the final season. You'll want to watch it just so you can see how it all ends up. I will say that Spike appears in the final episode.

GuidoTKP · Post by **GuidoTKP** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:44 am

I was another person late to the party, but I am a total convert. Buffy and Angel were some of the best television to hit the airwaves. What's scary (and tragic) is that Firefly had the potential to be better than either of them. Firefly found its bearings much faster than Buffy or Angel ever did. @#$@#$ Fox ....

jonnytx · Post by **jonnytx** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:42 am

I watched a lot of dvd's on my laptop (until the drive broke) while grinding various characters to 60 in WoW. I've probably seen every Buffy episode at least twice, but seasons 1-3 and 5 are my favorites and I've watched them over and over. It feels a little wierd to be so devoted a Buffy fan (and grinding multiple 60's in WoW) in my early 40's but I really love the show.

So much good stuff...The history and origins that are revealed all through the series (and in Angel as well) about the main vampire characters...great chemistry between unexpected characters (Joyce and Spike come to mind)... Geeky pop culture references and bits of comedy (Andrew to Warren: What are you, some kind of Jedi?).

For every comedy bit that they go with or goofy one liner that gets spoken, there's a bit of dark business or outright tragedy, and the punches don't get pulled. It's well written, well cast and (mostly) well acted, I think it's just brilliant.

Odin · Post by **Odin** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:02 am

It's probably not fair to judge the whole series on the handful (2-3) of episodes I've seen, but based on those I just never could get into it. In particular, the nerdy friends (I guess?) of Buffy's just seemed too campy. On the one hand, it's a show that sci-fi geeks in general tend to rave about, so it's possible I'd like it if I gave it a chance. On the other hand, I was never too impressed by Firefly, so this might be the same sort of thing. Chances are good I'll never get around to finding out.

Sith

Muddyboots · Post by **Muddyboots** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:15 am

Triggercut, I wish I was you. You are exactly where I was about 3 years ago with Buffy. Don't worry, Spike ain't going anywhere. Buffy remains for me the greatest TV I have ever seen. I expected nothing...I won the lottery!

khomotso · Post by **khomotso** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:01 am

rrmorton wrote:Never seen a single episode. Always meant to try it. I'll add it to the ever-growing list of Netflix TV shows.

(I'm on a 5-at-a-time plan right now and all 5 discs I have at home are TV series DVDs. That's nutty.)

I'm doing the same thing. Every 4th DVD is an actual movie.

Poleaxe · Post by **Poleaxe** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:34 am

IMO, the best TV series ever. I never watched it while it was on network, but the wife and I have seen every episode thanks to netflix.

Dan_Theman · Post by **Dan_Theman** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:49 am

Yep, it was an excellent show and Spike was in my mind one of the best "minor" characters in the past decade of tv. I'm not sure I'd still sit down and watch it all over again, but I can see the appeal and especially so if you haven't seen each episode multiple times, lol.

Marik · Post by **Marik** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:49 am

That was a dead-on analysis of the show. It just keeps building and building.

Well it does that until about season six, when it kinda goes to hell.

Best thing is, once you get to that point in Buffy you can speed through the last season and then switch over to Angel. Angel is great not only because its darker and has a totally different theme (with less of the melodrama baggage that Buffy got mired in), but also because the actors really loved the show 'till the end and you can tell. Angel managed to dodges the Buffy pitfall of season 6&7 by getting cancelled right at its highpoint and finished on a fantastic note. If Buffy ends with a meh, Angel ends with you ready to start kidnapping Fox Execs and holding them hostage to get more episodes.

I'd highly encourage you to get through Buffy 5 (and you'll want to get to 7 at that point, and it isn't all bad...) and then immediately get started on Angel 1. You will not be dissapointed.

Did I mention that Spike shows up from time to time in Angel as well?

Best. Villain. Ever.

YellowKing · Post by **YellowKing** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:37 am

I pretty much agree with everyone here. I think the show peaked at Season 3, then went into a slow downhilll slide. The show was much better when it was the core "Scooby Gang" in high school. After graduation and the introduction of new characters, I think the formula just got diluted a bit.

That's not to say each season doesn't have some fantastic episodes. I just started getting a bit tired of Buffy's piss-poor attitude that they felt they had to start every season off with. I guess mopy bitchiness is a realistic depiction of a teenage girl, but it didn't make for pleasant television.

Buffy holds the distinction of being the first TV series I can verifiably say I've watched every episode of, and is also the longest TV series I actually finished.

I'm working my way through Angel now, and while it's no Buffy, I do agree that the show gets better and better with each season.

As for the campiness - that's really part of the show's charm. Either you embrace it and grow to love it, or you hate it. Those who dismiss it out of hand as amateurish, however, are cheating themselves out of what was underneath the corny surface some brilliant dialogue.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:48 am

I'd disagree that it peaked at season three - it peaked at season 5, with the caveat that it had completely lost its way for the first half of season 4 (they obviously weren't sure what to do with the characters for a few episodes.) Oh, and yes - you won't see more episodes of Spike, you'll see more seasons of Spike.

tru1cy · Post by **tru1cy** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:09 am

Man, I envy you. Buffy was some of the best TV EVER. I remember picking up on the Season during summer re-runs after the first season aired on the WB and I was hooked ever since. If you enjoyed season 2 then season 3 will be a bigger joy. While I loved Buffy the series my enjoyment started to wane with season 6-7. I still consider the series finale to be a very weak episode, but don't let that dissuade you from watching the series

Btw, while Spike is awesome Drusilla is the best! Also, I like Angelus as well

Poleaxe · Post by **Poleaxe** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:18 am

As someone who watched the entire series over a 6 month period, the whole "the show declined after season (whatever)" thing is overdone. For those who watched the episodes as they aired, 7 years is a long time to stay fully engaged in a show. I suspect that many here would have started watching them as a teenybopper and ended the series as adults.

Blackhawk · Post by **Blackhawk** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:28 am

It has Good Show syndrome - a poor Buffy season is still better than 80% of other TV. Well, maybe not 'Beer Bad'.

CeeKay · Post by **CeeKay** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:01 pm

I hear Joss Whedon is doing a 'season 8' in comic book format.....

pr0ner · Post by **pr0ner** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:08 pm

CeeKay wrote:I hear Joss Whedon is doing a 'season 8' in comic book format.....

I think the man is incapable of letting one of his...works or whatever...just fade away.

godhugh · Post by **godhugh** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:19 pm

After The West Wing (which I just started watching again, man the scene in "The State Dinner" with that little ship caught in the storm chokes me up every time), Buffy is my favorite TV series. My wife got me into it and we've watched all the seasons except 7 multipl times.

Hildwyn · Post by **Hildwyn** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:55 pm

Poleaxe wrote:I suspect that many here would have started watching them as a teenybopper and ended the series as adults.

That would have been me, if I hadn't have decided in high school that I was too old for a show like Buffy. I started it in junior high right before the second season began, and then mid-third season decided I was too old for it, and stopped watching. Then I hit college, realized what an awesome show it really was, and started watching it again just in time for the 7th season. I was immediately confused, and so gave up there and watched the reruns on FX instead. I managed to get all my friends addicted to it too.

I still need to buy the last three seasons, and all of Angel. I love, love, love Angel.

Peacedog · Post by **Peacedog** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:02 pm

Poleaxe wrote:As someone who watched the entire series over a 6 month period, the whole "the show declined after season (whatever)" thing is overdone. For those who watched the episodes as they aired, 7 years is a long time to stay fully engaged in a show. I suspect that many here would have started watching them as a teenybopper and ended the series as adults.

It debuted my Jr year in college. Err, well it was supposed to be my Jr year (UGa wouldn't count any of my transfer credits as anything other than "worthless hours"; topic for another time). I'll note that I haven't actually matured any since that time, and that can be factored into analysis of my own thoughts on the show (I loved it) as desired.

Chaz · Post by **Chaz** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:35 pm

As soon as season 7 of The West Wing comes out on DVD, that, Buffy, and Angel will be the only multi-season shows I have the complete runs of. I still need to get season 2 of Dead Like Me, but haven't done it yet.

I've personally always loved the end of the Two Cathedrals episode, where the President yells at God in the middle of the National Cathedral, and then goes to the podium soaking wet.

Poleaxe · Post by **Poleaxe** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:36 pm

Peacedog wrote:
Poleaxe wrote:As someone who watched the entire series over a 6 month period, the whole "the show declined after season (whatever)" thing is overdone. For those who watched the episodes as they aired, 7 years is a long time to stay fully engaged in a show. I suspect that many here would have started watching them as a teenybopper and ended the series as adults.
It debuted my Jr year in college. Err, well it was supposed to be my Jr year (UGa wouldn't count any of my transfer credits as anything other than "worthless hours"; topic for another time). I'll note that I haven't actually matured any since that time, and that can be factored into analysis of my own thoughts on the show (I loved it) as desired.

Shit, I haven't matured since I was eleven. Just ask my wife.

Baroquen · Post by **Baroquen** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:43 pm

I started watching Buffy when they were doing the 2 a day reruns on TNT (I think?) Or was it FX? Anyway, ex-wife and I got hooked, and started watching Angel, and the DVDs of the series.

I'd say season 1 was a little rough, but 2 and 3 were great. I agree with the 'slow slide' comment post 3rd season, but it was all still very good.

I thought early Angel was pretty uneven too, but it did get better.

Love both series. Enjoy the ride watching them.

godhugh · Post by **godhugh** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:51 pm

Chaz wrote:As soon as season 7 of The West Wing comes out on DVD, that, Buffy, and Angel will be the only multi-season shows I have the complete runs of. I still need to get season 2 of Dead Like Me, but haven't done it yet.

I've personally always loved the end of the Two Cathedrals episode, where the President yells at God in the middle of the National Cathedral, and then goes to the podium soaking wet.

Not to derail, but IMO Two Cathedrals is just about the single best hour of television ever produced.

tru1cy · Post by **tru1cy** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:56 pm

Two Catherdral... is that the episode where President Bartlett is dealing with

Spoiler:

Spoiler tag for those that haven't seen the show. West Wing is awesome TV as well

godhugh · Post by **godhugh** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:57 pm

tru1cy wrote:Two Catherdral... is that the episode where President Bartlett is dealing with
Spoiler:
Mrs. Landingham death?

Spoiler tag for those that haven't seen the show. West Wing is awesome TV as well

Yep, it's the Season 2 Finale.

rittchard · Post by **rittchard** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:16 pm

Wow Trig you are just discovering this now!??!

But yeah, Buffy seasons 2 and 3 were probably some of the best TV I've ever seen, and I've watched a TON of TV. The later seasons there are still some excellent individual episodes, and particularly watching each entire season together makes the show even better than when it originally aired. Angel also takes off in its second season and I'd highly recommend watching it from the beginning. I still say it needed at least one more season; I just watched the series finale recently on TNT and hated that the show ended.

Even now, I still clamor for a new Buffyverse series. My dream series would have been Willow, but my very close second choice (since Alyson Hannigan is too busy doing her sitcom) would be Faith. I love my Faithy! I would kill for a new series featuring Faith, Illyria and Xander. And OK, maybe Spike too.

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:12 pm

Illyria makes me cry.

*EVERY* fucking time I watch those episodes.

But I can't help watching these seasons over and over.

22 episodes = what, 16 hours in a row?

I have indeed done just that on a day off.

(I'm a total goon as I buy full seasons of whatever my wife tells
me to... 1-4 Smallville, 1-5 Charmed, 1-7 Buffy, 1-5 Angel, 1st season of
Robot Chicken, Xena, Forever Knight, Firefly)

But ever since she bought me the old Xfiles VHS stuff I haven't had
reason to doubt her tastes or understanding of mine.

Freezer-TPF- · Post by **Freezer-TPF-** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:35 pm

GuidoTKP wrote:I was another person late to the party, but I am a total convert. Buffy and Angel were some of the best television to hit the airwaves. What's scary (and tragic) is that Firefly had the potential to be better than either of them. Firefly found its bearings much faster than Buffy or Angel ever did. @#$@#$ Fox ....

Indeed. After ignoring the show for years, I stumbled upon the Buffy musical episode (season 6) on TV by accident and then proceeded to watch every episode after that while catching up with reruns and DVDs. I also started watching and catching up with Angel as well. Great, great stuff.

And Spike is a brilliant character. There is plenty more Spike to come, no worries.

Roguetad · Post by **Roguetad** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:57 pm

My wife thought I was in love with SMG after 5 seasons of devoted tv watching, but I was just a huge fan of the show, particularly the writing. The interaction between the actors is great, and the awkward campiness is really what makes it all work. And then I discovered Firefly...woohoo!