Axis & Allies [Now with discussion of the online game]

[Bakhtosh]

My experience with Diplomacy has brought to light why I don't like games like that, but I do enjoy the Werewolf games and games like Axis & Allies. It's because with Dip, you can never know exactly who to trust, and you can never trust them completely. Someone who's been your friend for years can turn on you when you least expect it.

With those other games, the roles are assigned. Yeah, Austin might lie to my face and stab me in the back, but that's because he's playing an assigned role. Players on the same team don't suddenly decide to switch sides and play for the other side. You can talk trash to the other team. You can plan and scheme, but if your teammate says he's got your flank, then you don't have to worry about him taking a bite out of it.

So, I pulled out my Axis & Allies CD and played a quick game as Japan where the AI stomped the crap out of Germany, taking it down to only the capitol early on in the game. They managed to hold on while I marched across Russia to come to their aid. We won an economic victory just before our forces met.

It was awesome...so I started looking for Axis & Allies online tools. I found some, but nothing that appears to make running a forum game easy. They have some PBEM leagues and tools out there, but nothing seems to be really easy to use.

So I come here, begging for help. Has anyone here played A&A online? What tools are out there to help run a game?

There are a few complications to running A&A on the forum:
1) Turns are submitted round-robin, so USA will wait a while before getting a chance to move.
2) Combat in the board game is interactive as you decide which units take hits and (if you're attacking or a submarine) whether you want to retreat or not. I saw some rules for handling this without interaction (lowest attack/defense value or IPC value take the first hits, and the attacker declares before combat starts how many rounds his units will attack before retreating - if at all).
3) You would need a non-participating GM to handle dice rolls. There is a dice roll server out there. You submit how many dice you want to roll, and it e-mails the results to you and anyone else you want to include, so if I'm attacking you, I can request rolls for my troops and have the results sent to both of us. That way, you can confirm that I'm not cheating since the results match.

So would anyone here be interesting in playing if we can work out the kinks in the system? If there are new players, it's a fairly easy game to learn. There are a few quirky rules that you have to learn (when do AA guns fire, can I withhold my battleship from the naval battle so it can support the landing of troops, can I move my carrier 2 spaces then launch my fighters), but they're pretty straightforward and defined in the rules and a clarification document I have.

I'd be more than happy to participate in a newbie-friendly game to help new players learn the ropes.

[Chaosraven]

Never played before.

Always interested.

[El Guapo]

I've played it plenty, though not for awhile. I'm in.

[Lassr]

I've actually tried to figure out a way to do Axis & Allies through the forums but ran into the same stumbling blocks. Submitting orders to a moderator or game host to do all the rolls is the way to go but as you said I can't figure out how to make it interactive. The destruction of units and the decision to withdraw are not an easy task to handle. If we did that purely by posts then one battle could take days thus the game could end up running longer than "The Thing" game...<shudders>.

Even if we left the destruction of units up to the moderator, which would work 90% of the time, the ability to withdraw would still have to be up to the player after each dice roll.

I'd love to hear ideas on this too.

[LordMortis]

I've actually tried to figure out a way to do Axis & Allies through the forums but ran into the same stumbling blocks. Submitting orders to a moderator or game host to do all the rolls is the way to go but as you said I can't figure out how to make it interactive. The destruction of units and the decision to withdraw are not an easy task to handle. If we did that purely by posts then one battle could take days thus the game could end up running longer than "The Thing" game...<shudders>.

Even if we left the destruction of units up to the moderator, which would work 90% of the time, the ability to withdraw would still have to be up to the player after each dice roll.

I'd love to hear ideas on this too.

Rolling would be the biggest PITA. I've owned three copies of Axis and Allies in life and all three have managed to find there way into "loaned out" status. If I still have a copy then I don't mind moderating. I'll have to check as it's been ages since I've played.

There are like four editions worth of rules, so you will want to go over all of the rules before you play.

I also don't mind moderating other games if people want to simulate PBEM enviornments here. There are plenty of round robin set ups that can be done fairly easily, from board gaming to strategy gaming to silly gaming.

[stessier]

I loved that game as a teenager but always had trouble finding people to play with. I'd be in if you can find a way to make it forum friendly.

[LordMortis]

I loved that game as a teenager but always had trouble finding people to play with. I'd be in if you can find a way to make it forum friendly.

Forum friendly shouldn't be hard. If worse comes to worst, I can take screen captures of the A and A video game and then overlay pieces as necessary.

I'm don't know anything about the online tools though.

I will do my bestest to make samples and post them. The biggest problem is that I don't have photoshop anymore, so you are going to see some seriously amature tools for graphics.

Edit some links (as much a reminder to check myself when I get home as anything else):

A cheap map:

http://www.daak.de/hilfe/download/abbrev.gif

Places that emulates board games:

http://www.vassalengine.org/community/index.php?

http://triplea.sourceforge.net/mywikiop ... &Itemid=30 (This one looks good)

Online A&A tools:

http://www.axisandallies.net/index.php? ... &Itemid=67

Dice Server:

http://aamcbunker.net/other/login.html

PBEM site

http://www.daak.de/indexe.php?sprache=e

A&A dice calculator:

http://frood.net/aacalc/

Another map:

http://www.flames-of-europe.de/modules. ... =Downloads

[tru1cy]

I played it once in the Army and got my ass stomped as the US.


Btw, I understand what you mean in Diplomacy, but I think that's what makes it fun for some players

[Bakhtosh]

Btw, I understand what you mean in Diplomacy, but I think that's what makes it fun for some players

There is no doubt that many people enjoy the interaction and unknown factors in those kinds of games.

I'm just not one of them.

[tru1cy]

Btw, I understand what you mean in Diplomacy, but I think that's what makes it fun for some players

There is no doubt that many people enjoy the interaction and unknown factors in those kinds of games.

I'm just not one of them.

Yeah, me neither, but I'll save the rest for when our game ends

[LordMortis]

BTW, Bahktosh, if you want to run the game then I am most definately in. If you don't then I will definately moderate.

I haven't engaged the links to the tools that I posted closely but I think they should be plenty enough to run a game, even if I can't find my board.

I think it would be cool to look for railroad games to surface as well.

Let me know what you're thinking, so I can plan accordingly.

[Bakhtosh]

I would much rather play than moderate.

I'll be more than happy to help you test some of the tools for effectiveness.

If you want to run a quick test game for giggles to try out some of the tools, it would give noobs a chance to experience some of the rules, and we could experiment with different map programs, rule sets for combat resolution, and dice utilities.

Shall we start a rule set discussion? I always played vanilla 2nd ed. I did experiment with 2 hit battleships for fun.

3rd Ed looks fun, but it will require most of us to learn new rules, and new maps. Any 3rd ed players out there want to stick up for it?

[Bakhtosh]

And here's a link to a discussion of 3rd ed rules
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=ah ... h20031205a

[LordMortis]

3rd Ed looks fun, but it will require most of us to learn new rules, and new maps. Any 3rd ed players out there want to stick up for it?

I've never played with a new map (Except in A&A Europre and A&A Japan).

I'm not sure of the edition changes.

I don't play with two hit battleships, which were a later edition than any of the copies I own.

I do play with amphibious assault, no Russian attack first turn, and German Super Subs.

I do play that planes must always be able to land and move independently from carriers. This is either a bug or a sometimes intentional difference than in the video game. I never knew which.


I will happily run the game but I never like to impose "optional" rules but rather state preferences and let things go by democracy.

I will start posting the tools I'd use and a game plan sometime today or tomorrow. Likely the plan will be fairly ugly but might not be, depending on what the interfaces available are.

For those who have never played but are interested in the rules, I found a copy of them here:

http://www.wargamer.com/axisandallies/a ... _rules.txt

[Bakhtosh]

I'll put some of my files online soon.

Here's the first one a PDF of the 2nd ed rulebook.

It's a medium sized file (almost 7 megs), so please download it and save it so you don't have to DL it repeatedly.

And here is a document with some rules clarifications(for commonly asked questions).

Atlantic Ocean & Pacific Oceanwith abbreviations useful for submitting orders.

A scan of the game board

PBEM Rules

Document containing the setup instructions

Sample Orders

TripleA for windows - a user created A&A game (no AI). Pretty nifty. 10 megs

AAAMap for windows - looks nifty, but I can't see most of the Pacific ocean.

Combat Simulator - to determine the odds of success

[Bakhtosh]

I do play with amphibious assault

What's this?

no Russian attack first turn, and German Super Subs.

I do play that planes must always be able to land and move independently from carriers. This is either a bug or a sometimes intentional difference than in the video game. I never knew which.

Those are fairly standard options. Super subs are 1/2 of the Axis advantage. Jet Power for Germany is the other half (although if you play Limited Russia, it's probably not as necessary).

I will happily run the game but I never like to impose "optional" rules but rather state preferences and let things go by democracy.

I think we run a standard game. If you have experienced players as Axis, they don't usually need any help vs new players. If we have 1 or 2 new players as Axis, then we can give them a little boost.

[El Guapo]

3rd Ed looks fun, but it will require most of us to learn new rules, and new maps. Any 3rd ed players out there want to stick up for it?

I've never played with a new map (Except in A&A Europre and A&A Japan).

I'm not sure of the edition changes.

I don't play with two hit battleships, which were a later edition than any of the copies I own.

I do play with amphibious assault, no Russian attack first turn, and German Super Subs.

I do play that planes must always be able to land and move independently from carriers. This is either a bug or a sometimes intentional difference than in the video game. I never knew which.


I will happily run the game but I never like to impose "optional" rules but rather state preferences and let things go by democracy.

I will start posting the tools I'd use and a game plan sometime today or tomorrow. Likely the plan will be fairly ugly but might not be, depending on what the interfaces available are.

For those who have never played but are interested in the rules, I found a copy of them here:

http://www.wargamer.com/axisandallies/a ... _rules.txt

I always like to play with the (2nd edition) standard rules. Amphibious assault, planes must be able to land somewhere at the end of their turn, Russians can attack first turn, no starting super subs (why would the Germans have super subs historically, anyhow?). This does generally tilt the game in favor of the Allies, but (shrug). The Axis can still win, and I'm happy to play as either Axis power (preferably Japan).

Third edition, though I'd have to learn the rules, I understand tries to address this, amongst all of their rule changes.

But I'll defer to democracy as well.

[Bakhtosh]

German subs had control of the Atlantic for a while. The Super Subs make sense in that regard.

But giving the Axis powers a tech upgrade is just to help even the playing field. Given players of equal experience, the Allies tend to have an advantage. Competent Axis players can usually hold their own, but it relies on some luck in gaining control of key sea territories early on.

And where is Amphibious Assault an option? How do you play without it?

[LordMortis]

My bad. I didn't look into this this weekend. I passed out not feeling well when I got home from work on Friday, then Raven and Remus called me and woke me up from my stupor, then I did the family thing all day Saturday, was spent with family. Sunday was spent helping dad move furniture and watching the SuperBowl.



I doubt I will make time tonight either.

But Tuesday. I will check out all of the toys and report on Tuesday.

[LordMortis]

OK. Been dinking around. Discovered that I don't own a copy of A&A anymore. The best map generator I could find wouldn't get to a point wher I could put the entire map on the screen so every turn is going to be pieced together... And as I don't own fancy photo editors anymore I'm stuck with piecing them together with paint.

I will only update turns after I get home from work, so likely it will be one combat a day and that will slow the game down quite a bit.

Basically we'll be looking at two graphics. One with the abbreviated names and one with actual battle map:





The abbreviated name map won't change, the battle map will.

Let's find out who wants to play and hash out the rules.

[Bakhtosh]

I'd like to see a couple of veterans and 3 newbies if we have that kind of interest. One vet on each team would go a long way towards teaching the new guys the ropes.

Of course, I'm in.

[El Guapo]

I'm in. I haven't played for a few years, but I played many times before that.

What do you mean by one battle per day? Is that like, Germany launches 7 attacks on its first turn, and we finish resolving them a week later?

[LordMortis]

I'm in. I haven't played for a few years, but I played many times before that.

What do you mean by one battle per day? Is that like, Germany launches 7 attacks on its first turn, and we finish resolving them a week later?

I mean that if I am to act as a dice moderator, then I can only resolve one round of battles at a time, where retreats are then decided. Sadly it will slow the game down quite a bit.

We can do the trust die roll thing to speed things up, or we can go to dice roll servers where we have results emailed by the server. Everyone has to be on board with that though.

As most PBEM dice severs I have seen go by two players, I would have to set up two email addresses and have them autoforward results and then have each player log in as part of a team as necessary.

Come to think of it... If we can get an agreement for emails, we can make that work a bit quicker this way and the game will require less modding and move more quickly...

Let me test this and get back to you. (and learn how to do autoforwarding on WoW mail... and how to set up two more email accounts...)

[Grundbegriff]

I've never playe A&A, so I'll lurk if a game starts, and maybe join in the second instance, if one arises.

[Remus West]

You can add me to the lurker list as I am interested to see how it works out here but I doubt I'm up for round 1.

[Austin]

Watching. I'm interested in how it's going to work. If it is fairly straight forward, I'll take a lower spot if you need me to fill a seat. If it looks to be long, drawn out and complicated, I'll lurk. (As in if you have to send in moves and go back and forth a bunch with the moderator about, player X chose Y so what do you chose, and so on...)

[LordMortis]

Now that I'm thinking about this even further, we don't even need a moderator if we can set an email structure that allows forwarding of dice rolls from a dice server.

Everyone just needs to either have a live board or maintain a copy of the software that allows you to save the pieces on the board.

Setting new email accounts now. I will experiment with dice servers when I get home.

[LordMortis]

I registered a game at http://aamcbunker.net/other/login.html. I have the emails set up for it which will then forward turn results to the proper people who want to play. We can actually play this modless, so if we don't get a fifth player, I will play... But then we still need a third and fourth...

Austin, if you've never played A&A:

Without a mod and with a dice server, we will only be as drawn out as we are taking turns back and fourth. I, myself, won't actively play at work. That's one of the few taintos at my job.

Each round in A&A will have five turns (one for each player) and each turn will have multiple combats and each combat will have multiple phases until a winner is declared, so the game will take time.

It won't be complicated once you get in the flow of things, but you will want to look at the boards I posted and read the rules ahead of time if you've never played. You play on teams so there is plenty of room for kibitzing both publicly and privately.

[Redfive]

I'm an A&A veteran and am interested. How many turns a day are we talking about?

[LordMortis]

I'm an A&A veteran and am interested. How many turns a day are we talking about?

It's going to be an I go, You go situation so the pace would depend on the players.

Things that would potentially slow down the game:

1) Player checking in to make a move... Only slow the game a bit.
2) Combat. Combat sadly will be slow. Like it would in any PB email system. What I've done is set us up on a dicey server at http://aamcbunker.net/other/login.html .

I've set two email addresses, one to act as axis and one act as allies. When someone makes a combat, they plug in the email addresses and the units involved and the the dicey server emails the results to my two email addresses, who will then forward the results the axis and the allied players. Sadly each players combat is going to have multiple combats and each combat is going to have multiple phases so the game is going to take some time.

[Redfive]

I dont' guess I have a problem with it taking awhile but I'm concerned about accuracy..not so much with the dice rolling but with the phases of the turns running smoothly.

I was holding a baby when I found this thread yesterday and as of yet I haven't pursued any of the links herein so my concerns may already be addressed.

I guess the bottom line is I'm being lazy. I'd like to participate but not if it's going to resemble anything like work.

Maybe I should hold off and see how the first pass goes.

[LordMortis]

I dont' guess I have a problem with it taking awhile but I'm concerned about accuracy..not so much with the dice rolling but with the phases of the turns running smoothly.

I was holding a baby when I found this thread yesterday and as of yet I haven't pursued any of the links herein so my concerns may already be addressed.

I guess the bottom line is I'm being lazy. I'd like to participate but not if it's going to resemble anything like work.

Maybe I should hold off and see how the first pass goes.

Accuracy will be maintained by map posting and objection to mistakes. But we have no central serval for you to log moves into. Moves would be posted here and combats would be displayed to everyone through email, so all moves are completely verifiable moment by moment.

Turn will look something like this:

Use Dicey server to make tech rolls if you choose to.
Build and post combat move.
Resolve combats using dicey server, alsot posting withdraw orders, etc..
Post non combat moves and unit placements and collect IPCs.

(Results of all dicey events can be posted either separately or as part of a next phase and they will be sent to each player by email as they occur)

Both a graphic and non graphic representation of the units can be fairly easily maintained. I have the technology and the technology if doable from the links above.

It will be a little work for me. The work for you will be properly using abbreviations to keep accuracy up and checking emails.

[Remus West]

It will be a little work for me. The work for you will be properly using abbreviations to keep accuracy up and checking emails.

You left out where they have to work at translating your posts to english.

[Redfive]

Sounds good then. If you'll have me I'll play. I can play any country with most any rules, though I prefer I think the 2nd edition (whatever was applicable in the late 80s as that's when I got the game). I've played with some optional rules via the PC game as well so I guess I'm flexible.

I'm willing to mentor a noob on my team if needed as well--my advice on the UK might be a little weak though as I don't have a rock solid strategy/play style for them.

[LordMortis]

Sounds good then. If you'll have me I'll play. I can play any country with most any rules, though I prefer I think the 2nd edition (whatever was applicable in the late 80s as that's when I got the game). I've played with some optional rules via the PC game as well so I guess I'm flexible.

I'm willing to mentor a noob on my team if needed as well--my advice on the UK might be a little weak though as I don't have a rock solid strategy/play style for them.

Life is buena then. That's four of us:

LordMortis
Redfive
Bakhtosh
El Guapo


Lassr? Stessier?

chaosraven?

I can even sit out if you two of you want to play.

It sounds like we concur on 2nd edition rules if you want to read them raven.

We can start discussing optional rules any time. I don't think any of them are necessary so I'm easy.

[Bakhtosh]

This isn't a newb unfriendly game. Sometimes a fresh strategy can work. And with veterans on the roster, a newb can strategize within his alliance - learning the ropes as you go. A 5th player would make this game much better.

A very lucky (or unlucky) and aggressive Russia can turn the game to the Allies advantage early, so that's why there are several optional rules that nerf Russia in the first turn or give some advantage to the Axis.

I think vanilla 2nd ed rules is good for a first time.

But will someone tell me why amphibious assaults is mentioned when some of you talk about the rules options? They're standard to the rules if we're talking about being able to move troops from a transport to a land square.

[stessier]

I'm hesitant to sign up because it looks like the game will take a very long time to play. Today I think I could handle the time commitment to make the actual moves, I just don't know what my time will be like in 6 months.

If no one else is interested, though, and you think it's better to have 5 players with one who could potentially drop out a ways down the road, then I'm your President...uh...Dictator...maybe Emperor...oh, Prime Minister would be fun...

[Redfive]

Now that I've embraced the idea of it possibly taking awhile, I'm looking forward to getting started.

It will be nice to see some fresh perspectives. I've played the same way for so long now (the PC game the last 9 years or so).

[LordMortis]

I'm hesitant to sign up because it looks like the game will take a very long time to play. Today I think I could handle the time commitment to make the actual moves, I just don't know what my time will be like in 6 months.

If no one else is interested, though, and you think it's better to have 5 players with one who could potentially drop out a ways down the road, then I'm your President...uh...Dictator...maybe Emperor...oh, Prime Minister would be fun...

If you need to leave midgame, we can have one of your team mates take over or get you a replacement.

As we have no thoughts on optional rules, mayhaps we should play with none, just straight 2nd edition.

I will play any side and will bow out if we get a 5th.

[Screwtape]

I'm hesitant to sign up because it looks like the game will take a very long time to play. Today I think I could handle the time commitment to make the actual moves, I just don't know what my time will be like in 6 months.

If no one else is interested, though, and you think it's better to have 5 players with one who could potentially drop out a ways down the road, then I'm your President...uh...Dictator...maybe Emperor...oh, Prime Minister would be fun...

If you need to leave midgame, we can have one of your team mates take over or get you a replacement.

As we have no thoughts on optional rules, mayhaps we should play with none, just straight 2nd edition.

I will play any side and will bow out if we get a 5th.

if no one else wants the 5th spot i'll take it. i have actually had a hankerin' to play this game again for awhile....ahhhh high school....