Drinking with a Angel and Demon - Round Four

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Wed May 06, 2009 6:40 pm

Drinking with a Angel and Demon

This is a variation on our werewolf forum games. Gameplay is designed to be something different and new. The game is not played in days and nights but in Rounds. A single Round will be one calendar day ending on a hard deadline at 10:00 pm EST (unless otherwise noted). Round hard deadlines will not occur on weekends or holiday. When a player dies, his name will be announced by the waiter.

This is an experiment and it might not work so please feel free to make suggestions.

10 Players Needed

Good Side - The Angel will not be informed of the good player's names. The good players will not be informed of the Angel's name or any of the good players.
Michael Merseyside (Angel)
Mr. Astin (Goodie Goodie 01)
Vicar Bentley (Goodie Goodie 02)
Lord Carleton (Goodie Goodie 03)
Dr. Toliver (Goodie Goodie 04)
Mr. Urquhart (Goodie Goodie 05)
Mr. Venable (Goodie Goodie 06)

Evil Side - The demon will not be informed of both evil player's names. The evil players will not be informed of who the demon is but will be informed of the name of the other evil player. There is no secret forum for the evil players.
Eric Eagleton (Demon)
Admiral Fawkes (Bad Seed 01)
General Hawkins (Bad Seed 02)

Victory Objective:
Good - Kill all Bad Seeds.
Evil - Kill enough Goodie Goodie players where Goodie Goodie players and Bad Seed players are equal. The Angel and Demon do not count for either side, but can enjoy the victory achieved by their Team.

Game Rulez
Games are played in round of drinking wine. Each player (including the Angel and Demon) has a bottle of Wine he has brought specially from his private vineyard. Each round a player (including the Angel and Demon) may pour wine into the glass of ONE player with his bottle of wine. A player may not pour a drink for himself. This is done by announcing that you pour a drink for the player (please use the <accuse> format)
Newcastle pours a drink for Semaj

Each player (except the Angel and Demon) also has small vial of hemlock he can use to poison his bottle of wine which only lasts for the current round (the vial of hemlock never runs out). To do this, the player will secretly inform the moderator by PM if the bottle of wine is poisoned by the hard deadline. (for example, I poison on my bottle of wine.) This choice is irreversible and the PM must be timestamped BEFORE the player announces he has poured his wine into another player's glass and before the hard deadline for the round. A player may also choose to secretly poison his own drink with his own vial of hemlock by sending a PM to the moderator timestamped BEFORE the hard deadline. If a player poisons his own glass and no one pours him a drink, then the poison disappears at the end of the round and the player does not die.

For example:
I poison my bottle.
XOR
I poison my own glass.

A player may choose not to pour a drink for a round, even if they had previously announced they will poison their bottle of wine.

Angel and Demon - The Angel and Demon look like regular players but are immune to all poisons and can not die and they have special powers.

The Demon can administer one dose of poison any ONE player's glass of wine (this is done secretly by sending an PM to the moderator timestamped before the hard deadline) per round. The Demon can also administer a single does of anti-poison to any ONE player's glass of wine which removes one dose of poison. However, if no poison had been put in the player's glass then the anti-poison (Demon Only) kills that player. The Demon can choose to either to poison or anti-poison a player's glass each round but can not do both in the same round. If no player announces they are pouring a drink for another player, then the moderator will give the demon the option of administering poison to one player's plate of food and kill that player. The angel can not apply anti-poison to food.

The Angel can administer a single dose of anti-poison to a player's glass (this is done secretly by sending an IM to the moderator timestamped before the hard deadline) which removes ONE dose of poison from that player's glass of wine. The number of doses anti-poison the Angel can apply depends on the Round. Therefore:
Round 1 = 4 doses of anti-poison
Round 2 = 3 doses of anti-poison
Round 3 = 2 doses of anti-poison
Round 4 and beyond = 1 doses of anti-poison

Poisons: - One anti-poison negates one poison; negating two poisons requires two antidotes, and so on. Poisons and anti-poisons are stackable.

Rumors
At the end of each round, a rumor will be passed secretly by a waiter to a random player giving that player the identity of another player. The identity given could be of any player living or dead and could include the angel or demon. The player who hears the rumor will be so shocked by it that he will drop his vial of hemlock and will be unable to use it (or poison anyone) in the subsequent round but will be able to recover the vial and poison a drink in the following round. The Angel and Demon are not capable of receiving a rumor. Once everyone alive has received at least one rumor, the waiter goes silent and provides no more rumors.

Round Sequence:
1a. Players may inform moderator (by PM) if they choose to poison their wine bottle or own glass (only once).
1b. Players may announce in the main forum that they pour a drink from their bottle of wine into a player's glass (only once).
1c. Demon may administer a single dose of poison or anti-poison into a single player's glass by informing the moderator (by PM). If no player pours a drink for someone then the moderator will give the demon the option administering poison to a player's plate of food.
1d. Angel may administer a single dose of anti-poison into a single player's glass by informing the moderator (by PM).
Hard Deadline - Round Ends
2a. A rumor is whispered to a living player (not angel or demon).
2b. Drinks are drunk. Food is eaten. Players drinking or eating poison die (angel and demon are immune to poison and can not die).
3. The Waiter announces who has died and clears their spots at the table. Next Round begins.

Rounds will continue until one of the Victory Conditions is met.

Players:
1. Isgrimnur
2. Newcastle
3. Chaosraven
4. theohall
5. Stessier
6. Grundbegriff
7. Unagi
8. Semaj
9. Remus West
10. Lassr

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Wed May 06, 2009 6:40 pm

RULEZ UPDATES

I am using this space to comment on updates I make to the rulez.

May 15, 2009 12:36 PM - I just did some reformatting of the rulez for readability and I made a change to the power of the Angel. Instead of only being able to remove poison from one player's glass per round, the Angel can now remove poison from 3 players in the 1st round, 2 players in the 2nd round, and 1 player from the 3rd round and 1 in all following rounds. I did this to make to beef up the Angel's abilities a little and keep more people in the game at the start of the game.

May 18, 2009 1:56 pm - Integrated most of Grund's suggestions. The angel's power now removes all poisons (both demons and hemlock) from a glass of wine. The demon now has an anti-poison power which removed poison from a poisoned drink but will kill the player if the drink is not poisoned. Players may now choose to secretly poison their own drinks. The number of drinks the angel can remove poison from has increased by 1. Players who receive a rumor will not be able to use their vial of hemlock in the subsequent round and the Angel and Demon can not receive a rumor. Players may now choose not to pour a drink however this is considered very poor manners.

May 20, 2009 11:27 pm - Many adjustments thanks to Grund and Unagi. Names have been given to players. Now, when a player dies, the waiter will announce the player who has died. Also, we now have Goodie Goodies and Bad Seeds.

Poisons and Anti-poisons are stackable and the Angel and Demon can now only apply a single dose of poison or anti-poison. In effect, players can apply more poison then the angel or demon can take out. Poison is now applied to the players bottle before he pours it in someone's glass. Players may also try to poison themselves but this can only happen if someone pours him some win first. Rumors are no longer given out once every player alive has received one.

May 20, 2009 2:30 pm - Added a round sequence to the rulez to clarify the order. A player will receive a rumor before deaths are calculated.

May 20, 2009 5:28 pm - New rule. If no player pours a drink for another player in that round, than the moderator will give the demon the option to administer poison to a player's plate of food. The angel will not be able to administer his anti-poison to food.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Wed May 06, 2009 7:58 pm

Interesting.

What stops us all from just poisoning on every round? And if we do that, doesn't that mean after the first round there will only be 4 players left: Angel, Angel's target, Demon, & Demon's target?

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Wed May 06, 2009 8:09 pm

Well, at most, the evil guys can kill three people on the first night. Evil One and Evil Two can try to pick a different person to poison and since the know each others identities they can be sure they don't poison each other. The demon doesn't know who his evil team is so he has to take a chance he doesn't kill his own people.

Also, the angel could possibility prevent someone from being poisoned.

If someone dies of poisoning, then all players will know who pouring wine in that person's drink that round. The good guys must decide if they want to target that person or not. He could have been framed by the Demon.

The good guys could wait to see if a waiter whispers a rumor to them about the identity of a player. Its about choices and figuring out who is who.

If everyone poisons on the first round, the game could be over very quickly.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Tue May 12, 2009 9:40 pm

:SIGH: No one likes my drinking game idea.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Fri May 15, 2009 11:34 am

Count me in for this one.

Newcastle · Post by **Newcastle** » Fri May 15, 2009 12:36 pm

i'll give it a whirld scoop

"hic"

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Fri May 15, 2009 12:53 pm

Question to everyone: Do you like the idea that the Angel and Demon can not die? If not, would you like me to develop a rule where the Angel can take out the Demon and the Demon can take out the Angel?

Chaosraven · Post by **Chaosraven** » Fri May 15, 2009 3:03 pm

I'm in, however the game turns out

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Fri May 15, 2009 3:31 pm

Chaosraven wrote:I'm in, however the game turns out

Its definitely an experiment but I think there are some interesting strategic possibilities here.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Fri May 15, 2009 7:45 pm

Round 1 = 3 glasses
Round 2 = 2 glasses
Round 3 = 1 glass
Round 4 and beyond = 1 glass

That's the same as

Round 1 = 3 glasses
Round 2 = 2 glasses
Round 3 and beyond = 1 glass

Scoop20906 wrote: 1 Angel
6 Good Players

1 Demon
2 Evil Players

Victory Objective:
Good - Kill all Evil Players.
Evil - Kill enough good players where good player and evil players are equal. The Angel and Demon do not count for either side.

If neither the Angel nor the Demon counts toward the victory condition, then the ratio is 6/2, or 12/4, which is about twice as many bad guys as we would normally see in such a game. Meanwhile, there are as many as three kills per night, not counting Good Guys' blunders.

The good guys will be killed far too quickly.

Here are some suggested refinements:

1. The Angel's antidote negates any poison, not just the Demon's poison.
2. Instead of using his poison to kill a Good, the Demon can use it as an antidote to save an Evil he thinks has been poisoned. But if the Evil wasn't poisoned by someone else after all, then he dies from the Demon's poison.
3. Any Good can drink his own Hemlock to frame the person who poured for him.
4. Instead of 3 pours and 2 pours on the first two rounds, the Angel gets 4 pours, 3 pours, and 2 pours on the first three rounds.
5. A player who hears a rumor at the end of a round cannot use his Hemlock in the subsequent round.

That'll make it harder to kill the Goods, but also complicate their effort to kill the Evils.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Fri May 15, 2009 7:50 pm

Scoop20906 wrote:Question to everyone: Do you like the idea that the Angel and Demon can not die? If not, would you like me to develop a rule where the Angel can take out the Demon and the Demon can take out the Angel?

No. It's better to have them immune, since it'll complicate the effort to figure out who was saved by a Spirit (pun intended!) and who was saved by being a Spirit.

Also, I propose a 1-day turnover. Pouring finishes every RL calendar day at the same hour (of your choice).

As for random.org, what's the point? Random.org won't poison anyone; it'll just 'pour', and that has no effect. So why not simply allow people to refrain from pouring if they choose? A "pour" by random.org would only be meaningful if it came with a consequence. That would require a rule such as "Nobody can pour for the same person twice in a row", so that the penalty of defaulting to random.org is that it forecloses pouring for that same person the following round.

(You could say that random.org's choice might have a consequence of the truant player happened to announce by PM his intention to use Hemlock. But what if the PM clearly indicated his intention to poison Bubba, and random.org selected Sue? Seems unfair somehow.)

Finally, I think you should make explicit that a request to use Hemlock must be timestamped prior to the time a pour is announced in the thread.

theohall · Post by **theohall** » Fri May 15, 2009 8:34 pm

When the refinements are figured out - i'm no good at figuring those things out yet - I'm INterested. Something different should be interesting.

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Mon May 18, 2009 1:11 pm

Grund, thanks for all the feedback. Sorry I am not responding until today but was busy with family and stuff. I will look at your suggestions and re-work the rulez.
THANKS!

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Mon May 18, 2009 1:58 pm

Rulez have been updated. See the revision notes on Post 2. I'm ready to start this as soon as we get 10 players.

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Mon May 18, 2009 2:44 pm

I graciously accept the invitation to this fascinating party even though I have yet to receive it. I assume the Post has simply misplaced it yet again. Good help is so hard to find these days.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Mon May 18, 2009 2:47 pm

INteresting game

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon May 18, 2009 11:15 pm

Count me in.

Semaj · Post by **Semaj** » Tue May 19, 2009 7:20 am

do I have ot read the rules to be in?

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Tue May 19, 2009 7:44 am

Semaj wrote:do I have ot read the rules to be in?

I think this game is right up your alley.

Newcastle · Post by **Newcastle** » Tue May 19, 2009 12:29 pm

uhm how do you kill off a player then? I know simplistic...

but lets say joe and bob both have 2 drinks poured for em, with 1 vial of hemlock in each. Or did i just not read the rules thoroughly?

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue May 19, 2009 1:48 pm

Newcastle wrote:Or did i just not read the rules thoroughly?

A little early to be working on your evil cover, isn't it???

Newcastle wrote:uhm how do you kill off a player then?

If they drink a drink of pink ink, then they are likely an Yink. Er - if they drink hemlock, they are dead.

but lets say joe and bob both have 2 drinks poured for em, with 1 vial of hemlock in each. Or did i just not read the rules thoroughly?

That's a good question. The Angel can remove hemlock from Glasses according to the rules. So if Joe has 4 glasses, the Angel must choose which glasses to remove the hemlock from, right? And if Joe drinks 3 glasses that were purified and 1 still poisoned, they are still dead, correct?

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Tue May 19, 2009 1:54 pm

stessier wrote:
but lets say joe and bob both have 2 drinks poured for em, with 1 vial of hemlock in each. Or did i just not read the rules thoroughly?
That's a good question. The Angel can remove hemlock from Glasses according to the rules. So if Joe has 4 glasses, the Angel must choose which glasses to remove the hemlock from, right? And if Joe drinks 3 glasses that were purified and 1 still poisoned, they are still dead, correct?

I think the point of confusion is drinks:wine. My understanding is that a player may have 4 drinks, but still only has one glass.

Each round a player (including the Angel and Demon) may pour wine into the glass of another player with his bottle of wine.

So the Angel is a blanket protection against everything in the player's single glass.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Tue May 19, 2009 2:20 pm

I'll play in this game. I'm going to have more time available than I had been thinking I would.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue May 19, 2009 2:23 pm

Remus West wrote:I'll play in this game. I'm going to have more time available than I had been thinking I would.

The check cleared?

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Tue May 19, 2009 2:28 pm

Unagi wrote:
Remus West wrote:I'll play in this game. I'm going to have more time available than I had been thinking I would.
The check cleared?

Remus West pours a drink for Unagi

Scoop20906 · Post by **Scoop20906** » Tue May 19, 2009 2:30 pm

The angel's power allows him to protect one player from all poisons regardless of how many people try to poison him.
The same would go for the demon's anti-poison.

I will clean up the rules on that point when I get a chance.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue May 19, 2009 4:26 pm

Scoop20906 wrote:The angel's power allows him to protect one player from all poisons regardless of how many people try to poison him.
The same would go for the demon's anti-poison.

I would like to propose, for discussion, that each antidote (angelic or demoniac) negates only one dose of poison. That way, it'll be possible to overcome antidotes by teaming up (stacking poisons). Pour me a triple, bartender! If it consists of two poisons and a straight, and includes only one antidote, I'm dead.

The benefit of having the antidote be absolute is that it's easier to save a person, harder to kill him, and harder to tell what he was saved from. (A person saved by antidote was poisoned by any number of people.)

The benefit of having the antidote be potent against only a single dose of poison is that it's harder to save a person, easier to kill him, and easier to tell what he was saved from. (A person saved by n doses of antidote was only poisoned by n other persons.)

I'm suggesting the second is preferable. Otherwise, we might see an endgame where Good01 and Good02 keep poisoning the LastRemainingEvil, but the Demon keeps saving him. Stalemate.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue May 19, 2009 5:42 pm

There could be a potential semantics issue in this game. It may be helpful to clear it up sooner than later.

There are 2 sides on this game Good vs. Evil.

I realize that the Demon doesn't count for the Evil Team's head-count, but the term "Evil Players" may cause some confusion.

Perhaps we should create some real names around all of these entities?

So, for example - it could be:

GOOD TEAM
6 Goodie Goodies

EVIL TEAM
2 Bad Seeds

THE COACHES \ HOSTS
1 Angel
1 Demon

Victory Objective:
Good - Kill the entire Evil Team.
Evil - Kill the entire Good Team (or enough to dominate through majority)
The Angel and Demon do not count for either side, but can enjoy the victory achieved by their Team.

Helpful ? needless ? stoopid ?

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue May 19, 2009 5:45 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:I'm suggesting the second is preferable. Otherwise, we might see an endgame where Good01 and Good02 keep poisoning the LastRemainingEvil, but the Demon keeps saving him. Stalemate.

Hmm, that would be annoying to have that outcome.

Is there any thought around making the antidote not work on the same person twice in a row? (I haven't read through all the rules yet, so I don't know if this solution is game-breaking in some other way...)

stessier · Post by **stessier** » Tue May 19, 2009 7:27 pm

Unagi wrote:Helpful ? needless ? stoopid ?

I thought you just said we were going to call them The Good Team, Remus, and The Evil Team.

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Tue May 19, 2009 10:18 pm

stessier wrote:
Unagi wrote:Helpful ? needless ? stoopid ?
I thought you just said we were going to call them The Good Team, Remus, and The Evil Team.

Clearly placing yourself on the Evil team I see.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue May 19, 2009 10:19 pm

Unagi wrote:
Grundbegriff wrote:I'm suggesting the second is preferable. Otherwise, we might see an endgame where Good01 and Good02 keep poisoning the LastRemainingEvil, but the Demon keeps saving him. Stalemate.
Hmm, that would be annoying to have that outcome.

Yes, it would.

Two Hemlocks from the Good Guys versus one antidote from the Demon, and the poisoned evil would still die (if antidotes are dosed rather than absolute). However, the nightly rumor would go to one of three people: Good01, Good02, and Evil01. Every time the rumor hit a Good, he'd be unable the use his Hemlock on the following round, and the Demon would successfully save the Evil from the other Good's poison.

So we also need a rule that constrains the rumor. How about this: At any point in the game, if every person still alive has received at least one rumor, then the rumoring stops.

Is there any thought around making the antidote not work on the same person twice in a row? (I haven't read through all the rules yet, so I don't know if this solution is game-breaking in some other way...)

I think the stalemate can be resolved without this rule, provided we use the two rules I've recommended:

1. one antidote negates one poison; negating two poisons requires two antidotes, and so on.
2. once everyone alive has received at least one rumor, the waiter goes silent.

I don't think we want to prohibit saving someone twice in a row. Part of the fun is figuring out how to stack effectively when we're not sure who's armed with antidotes and who's in an alliance.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue May 19, 2009 10:21 pm

Unagi wrote: 6 Goodie Goodies
2 Bad Seeds
THE COACHES

I refuse to use these terms.

Who are you-- Adam Ant?

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue May 19, 2009 10:23 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:
Unagi wrote: 6 Goodie Goodies
2 Bad Seeds
THE COACHES
I refuse to use these terms.
Who are you-- Adam Ant?

Secret.

Secret Squirrel

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue May 19, 2009 10:31 pm

Teh Rulez wrote:Each player (except the Angel and Demon) also has small vial of hemlock he can use to poison the glass of the player he poured his wine into (the vial of hemlock never runs out). To do this, the player will secretly inform the moderator by PM if the drink they poured is poisoned by the hard deadline. (for example, I poisoned Remus West's drink) This choice is irreversible and the PM must be timestamped BEFORE the player announces he has poured his wine into another player's glass and before the hard deadline for the round. A player may choose not to pour a drink for a round, even if they had previously announced they will poison the drink. A player may also choose to secretly poison his own drink with his own vial of hemlock by sending a PM to the moderator timestamped BEFORE the hard deadline.

I am confused a little.

It sounds like we can revoke poisoning someone. It also sounds like we can pour a glass for Mr.X, poison it, then go on the pour a glass for Everyone else.

Here's the statement that threw me:

A player may choose not to pour a drink for a round, even if they had previously announced they will poison the drink.

Yeah, I am confused - but if this stuff has gotten past Grund and everyone elses fine comb, I am sure I am missing something - someone, help!

Also Scoop, clear this part out of your main rules, as you have since changed it.

A player may not pour a drink for himself.

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue May 19, 2009 10:55 pm

Unagi wrote:
Teh Rulez wrote:Each player (except the Angel and Demon) also has small vial of hemlock he can use to poison the glass of the player he poured his wine into (the vial of hemlock never runs out). To do this, the player will secretly inform the moderator by PM if the drink they poured is poisoned by the hard deadline. (for example, I poisoned Remus West's drink) This choice is irreversible and the PM must be timestamped BEFORE the player announces he has poured his wine into another player's glass and before the hard deadline for the round. A player may choose not to pour a drink for a round, even if they had previously announced they will poison the drink. A player may also choose to secretly poison his own drink with his own vial of hemlock by sending a PM to the moderator timestamped BEFORE the hard deadline.
I am confused a little.

It sounds like we can revoke poisoning someone. It also sounds like we can pour a glass for Mr.X, poison it, then go on the pour a glass for Everyone else.

You're confused a little.

Poisoning is a private act implemented as a PM to the Mod.
Pouring is a public act, implemented thus: Unagi

The pouring takes place zero or one times per round per person.
The delivery of poison takes place zero or one times per round per person, and must precede the public accusation. (If it doesn't precede the [accuse}[/accuse}, then it didn't happen.
The poisoning (if any) and the pouring (if any) must precede the hard deadline of 10pm EST nightly.

Legal moves in a given round:
(a) Bubba PMs Mod with intention to poison Sue, and Bubba pours for (accuses) Sue. Outcome: Sue is poisoned Bubba.
(b) Bubba PMs Mod with intention to poison Sue, and Bubba pours for nobody. Outcome: nobody is poisoned by Bubba.
(c) Bubba PMs Mod with intention to poison Sue, and Bubba pours for anyone other than Sue. Outcome: nobody is poisoned by Bubba.
(d) Bubba doesn't PM the Mod. Outcome: nobody is poisoned by Bubba.
(It's possible that Bubba == Sue.)

Here's the statement that threw me:
A player may choose not to pour a drink for a round, even if they had previously announced they will poison the drink.
Yeah, I am confused - but if this stuff has gotten past Grund and everyone elses fine comb, I am sure I am missing something - someone, help!

It hasn't gotten past. As soon as you draw the distinction between privately expressed intention to poison and public accusation, it makes sense.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Tue May 19, 2009 10:58 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:It hasn't gotten past.

Ouch!

Grundbegriff · Post by **Grundbegriff** » Tue May 19, 2009 11:02 pm

It seems to me that this ruleset is ready for primetime. Is there any further loophole that has gotten past me/us/Scoop?

If not, then let's recruit two more players and get this party started!

Remus West · Post by **Remus West** » Tue May 19, 2009 11:23 pm

Grundbegriff wrote:It seems to me that this ruleset is ready for primetime. Is there any further loophole that has gotten past me/us/Scoop?

If not, then let's recruit two more players and get this party started!

Sheesh, join late and get no love from the Mod or Grund I guess.