Daylight Saving Time

The Meal · Post by **The Meal** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:26 am

The EU ends their equivalent of the Daylight Saving Time period on October 25th. Here in the States, we'll end ours for the year on November 1st.

Folks have strong opinions as to how much they like the concept or how disruptive it is to their lives. There are three reasons why it is done: 1) saving electricity (and therefore money), 2) saving lives, and 3) slowing down crime rates.

There are many studies done regarding the efficacy of the program (focused mostly on the first reason), and it would seem that the logical conclusion is that local conditions affect just how much (or even whether) electricity/money is saved. California would see so much in savings that they wanted to shift to a "Double Daylight Saving Time" for the summer and shift by one hour during the winter (though that proposal got derailed by the events of 9/11/01), while Indiana recently saw a slight increase in costs when parts of that state recently started following DST conventions. Reasons for the differences would be usage of air conditioning vs. heaters, latitude/weather effects, [edit:]longitudinal location within the time zone[/edit], and relative amounts of farming within the state.

Based on a 1974-75 study, the Department of Transportation estimated that DST saves 10,000 barrels of oil each day from consumption within the US and that 50 lives and 2000 injuries were prevented in a two-month period due to a 8-11% reduction in vehicle-pedestrian accidents and a 6-10% reduction in vehicular crashes (a total savings of $28M related to accident reductions).

http://energy.ca.gov/daylightsaving.html" target="_blank
http://www.webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/index.html" target="_blank
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daylight_saving_time" target="_blank

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:47 am

How exactly does the fewer accidents thing happen? I never knew it was part of the argument.

When I biked to work, DST meant I'd always be riding home in the dark during peak traffic. While I never became a statistic, there is absolutely no way I would have considered it more safe.

Ninyu · Post by **Ninyu** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:48 am

Less people ride because it is dark?

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:55 am

I don't know why we ever leave DST. I'd rather have more daylight in the afternoon/evening than in the morning. I guess it's to keep the kiddies from going to school in the dark?

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:57 am

Ninyu wrote:Less people ride because it is dark?

Not really. Darkness doesn't deter most bike commuters or those who use a bike for their job (messengers, for example). You might have fewer kids on the side streets, but this is inherently less dangerous, and you don't find them riding main roads during the day either.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:59 am

Ironrod wrote:I don't know why we ever leave DST. I'd rather have more daylight in the afternoon/evening than in the morning. I guess it's to keep the kiddies from going to school in the dark?

I assume Boston is like Chicago in that the afternoon commute has way more traffic than the morning. Having them walk home in the dark doesn't seem to be an equitable trade.

NetGuy · Post by **NetGuy** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:10 pm

Ironrod wrote:I don't know why we ever leave DST. I'd rather have more daylight in the afternoon/evening than in the morning. I guess it's to keep the kiddies from going to school in the dark?

Agree 100%, I hate moving off of DST time. I can't think of a single reason that it matters to the vast majority of people if there is light at 6,7 or 8 in the morning, while I would bet that most people would love to have daylight until 6,7 or 8 at night in the windter... I certainly would.

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:32 pm

Time change ain't nothing but a big old pain in the ass.

If I had sound and time, I'd find that Daniel Tosh bit from Completely Serious on Daylight Savings.

qp · Post by qp » Mon Sep 28, 2009 2:49 pm

I'm on the side that we should just say on DST. Changing sucks. Going home from work in the dark sucks.

Malificent · Post by **Malificent** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:37 pm

NetGuy wrote:
Ironrod wrote:I don't know why we ever leave DST. I'd rather have more daylight in the afternoon/evening than in the morning. I guess it's to keep the kiddies from going to school in the dark?

Agree 100%, I hate moving off of DST time. I can't think of a single reason that it matters to the vast majority of people if there is light at 6,7 or 8 in the morning, while I would bet that most people would love to have daylight until 6,7 or 8 at night in the windter... I certainly would.

I hate waking up at dark o'clock in the morning - I wake up much better and less cranky when I have natural light to wake up with.

Terrified · Post by **Terrified** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:41 pm

The Meal wrote:Folks have strong opinions as to how much they like the concept or how disruptive it is to their lives.

I feel like I'm in a unique position, living in North America, yet living in one of the places (Saskatchewan) that does not observe Daylight Saving Time.

It's a joke.

Let me rephrase that. With regions to the east and west of us who do observe DST, Saskatchewan does not:
1) save electricity
2) save lives
3) affect crime rates

In other words, the season changes in power usage that occur to our east and west are mirrored here without DST being observed. Fatality/mortality & crime rates do also likewise mirror.

You see, the problem is that the studies that were done to evaluate DST were done as "Before DST/ After DST" in similar areas. So they "proved" that DST saved electricity because the studies were done in an era where you turned on the lights at night. Compare that to nowadays where I'll bet most of you have interior lights that are on during the day. Or more importantly, you use computers or air conditioning or many items that dwarf the power requirements of a light during the day. Comparing apples to oranges.

Up here, you can compare apples to apples. Areas that are quite similar (Say, Saskatchewan and Manitoba) where one observes DST and one does not... No significant differences in any of those rates. You can bet that if the accident rate actually rose, insurance companies would make you pay more for living in an area with no DST. But they don't.

DST is a left-over relic of an earlier time. Now, it's just a ritual people continue to do out of social inertia.

tjg_marantz · Post by **tjg_marantz** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:43 pm

On December 21st, the sun sets at 4:13 here. Gimme mah DST!

LordMortis · Post by **LordMortis** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:45 pm

Malificent wrote:
NetGuy wrote:
Ironrod wrote:I don't know why we ever leave DST. I'd rather have more daylight in the afternoon/evening than in the morning. I guess it's to keep the kiddies from going to school in the dark?

Agree 100%, I hate moving off of DST time. I can't think of a single reason that it matters to the vast majority of people if there is light at 6,7 or 8 in the morning, while I would bet that most people would love to have daylight until 6,7 or 8 at night in the windter... I certainly would.
I hate waking up at dark o'clock in the morning - I wake up much better and less cranky when I have natural light to wake up with.

You and me both. I actually often experience a nausea waking up in the dark and my day then follows from that nausea. I love camping and getting up with the sun, whenever that may be.

Isgrimnur · Post by **Isgrimnur** » Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:49 pm

Please put it on DST and leave it there!

Malificent wrote:I hate waking up at dark o'clock in the morning

The proper term for that is 0 dark 30.

Sandpuppy · Post by **Sandpuppy** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:22 am

Speaking as someone who's seen enough sunshine for 20 lifetimes, I'll take all the nighttime I can get.

gbasden · Post by **gbasden** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:32 am

In a perfect world I'd never be consious before 9am, so more light in the evening would be appreciated.

Giles Habibula · Post by **Giles Habibula** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:39 am

I just hate having to remember to set the clocks.
I never seem to hear the friendly radio reminders, and noone at work reminds me either, so I'm screwed unless I make a concious effort a week beforehand.
This thread is a reminder. thanks.
I suppose I could write it on my calendar now, but I never look at that either.
Wish me luck when the time comes, or I'll be showing up for work early.
I hate when that happens.

Mr Bubbles · Post by **Mr Bubbles** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 11:55 am

Visiting the in laws in Germany I've learned to appreciate the light. In the deepest of winter it starts to get light at 8:30am and gets dark around 4pm. Sad thing is during the week if you work in a place like that you're working in all the day light you get... so all of your free time is spent in the dark. It's quite an odd experience.

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:01 pm

I love it when it starts getting dark at 3:30pm. Makes hitting the bar at 5:30pm seem less pathetic.

Jeff V · Post by **Jeff V** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:30 pm

LawBeefaroni wrote:I love it when it starts getting dark at 3:30pm. Makes hitting the bar at 5:30pm seem less pathetic.

But doesn't it suck when you leave the bar at 6 am and the sun is shining in your eyes?

LawBeefaroni · Post by **LawBeefaroni** » Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:33 pm

Jeff V wrote:
LawBeefaroni wrote:I love it when it starts getting dark at 3:30pm. Makes hitting the bar at 5:30pm seem less pathetic.
But doesn't it suck when you leave the bar at 6 am and the sun is shining in your eyes?

No. There's a reason they call it "blind drunk."

The Meal · Post by **The Meal** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:42 pm

I just found out we're supposed to spring forward this weekend! This completely blindsided me.

There's my PSA for the day.

Sandpuppy · Post by **Sandpuppy** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:54 pm

Speaking as someone who lives west of where they work and in an area where clouds don't exist, this will be blindfronting me.

Freezer-TPF- · Post by **Freezer-TPF-** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:07 pm

The Meal wrote:I just found out we're supposed to spring forward this weekend! This completely blindsided me.

There's my PSA for the day.

And thanks to Bush screwing with the dates, I have to reset my digital recorder manually because otherwise it will dutifully change the time according to the old schedule. /shakes fist at sky

tgb · Post by **tgb** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:56 pm

That's one less hour of losing my money in Vegas.

The Meal · Post by **The Meal** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:04 pm

tgb wrote:That's one less hour of losing my money in Vegas.

I'm not thrilled about this whole "shortest weekend of the year," catching me by surprise like this. Have fun in Vegas!

Odin · Post by **Odin** » Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:06 pm

There's almost no situation where "spring forward" is something I really like to do.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:29 pm

At last, the clock in my car is right again. Now I have to stop mentally subtracting an hour.

Wargus · Post by **Wargus** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:40 pm

I'm not a fan. I think (without one shred of evidence) that the reasons for implementing DST really aren't an issue.

1) save electricity
2) save lives
3) affect crime rates

I'd heard of the first, but not the last two. The DST wiki gives a bunch of statistics and goes on to talk about the flaws in many of them.

FTWalker · Post by **FTWalker** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:09 pm

I think that this Fall, we should just turn the clocks back 1/2 an hour and forget changing them ever again.

dbt1949 · Post by **dbt1949** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:13 pm

If we had my way it'd be cloudy and gloomy all the time and no need for DST.

Sudy · Post by **Sudy** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:58 pm

FTWalker wrote:I think that this Fall, we should just turn the clocks back 1/2 an hour and forget changing them ever again.

My sentiments. (Well, half-hour, hour, whatever.) If DST is so darned good that we only keep standard time for four months out of the year, why not just move to it permanently?

I'm mildly obsessive-compulsive and already check and double-check my alarms every night for fear of sleeping in. On nights we go to or return from DST I go nuts. In the spring I basically have to stay up until 2:00 a.m. to make sure my timepieces which adjust automatically do so properly, or else must bring a third clock into the mix as a failsafe. And while I understand perfectly the concept of DST, I still get confused when I'm trying to figure out how time will change.

silverjon · Post by **silverjon** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:03 pm

Or we could start calling the 4 months Daylight Wasting Time?

Sudy · Post by **Sudy** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:13 pm

silverjon wrote:Or we could start calling the 4 months Daylight Wasting Time?

Hey, there's an idea--environmentalists would be all over it! Standard Time would be eliminated within one election cycle.

Kraken · Post by **Kraken** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:01 pm

I'm all for making it permanent. I know we fall back to Daylight Wastings Time because of schoolchildren or cows or something, but it hardly seems relevant.

Sudy · Post by **Sudy** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:14 pm

Schoolcows, I'm sure of it.

Freezer-TPF- · Post by **Freezer-TPF-** » Sun Mar 14, 2010 10:14 pm

I hate that my cellphone automatically adjusts the time but for some reason also changes my alarms ahead one hour as well.

tjg_marantz · Post by **tjg_marantz** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:31 am

I thought it was Fall forward and assume Spring back.

dbt1949 · Post by **dbt1949** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:13 pm

That's just in Montreal.

Unagi · Post by **Unagi** » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:40 pm

My two year old finally woke up at 7:00 am