American torture

[AWS260]

The Senate report on the CIA's torture program is out. NYT story.

In January 2003, 10 months into the Central Intelligence Agency’s secret prison program, the agency’s chief of interrogations sent an email to colleagues saying that the relentlessly brutal treatment of prisoners was a train wreck “waiting to happen and I intend to get the hell off the train before it happens.” He said he had told his bosses he had “serious reservations” about the program and no longer wanted to be associated with it “in any way.”

The bitter infighting in the C.I.A. interrogation program was only one symptom of the dysfunction, disorganization, incompetence, greed and deception described in a summary of the Senate Intelligence Committee’s report. In more than 500 pages, the summary, released on Tuesday, paints a devastating picture of an agency that was ill equipped to take on the task of questioning Al Qaeda suspects, bungled the job and then misrepresented the results.

[Fireball]

Everything in this report is disgusting. We should be ashamed that our nation has done these things.

[Teggy]

Waiting for the first talking head to blame this on Obama.

[PLW]

I am ashamed.

[LawBeefaroni]

Everything in this report is disgusting. We should be ashamed that our nation has done these things.

I was ashamed when we were doing them. Rendition aircraft? Remember that shit? Sometimes it's best to wait until you have all the facts but in the case of any just actions coming out of 9/11, it's been clear all along that we pretty much bungled it from the start and ceeded any moral high ground we had in about 4 months.

And it's no surprise to hear the report say that we gained little intelligence or anything else of value from this mortgaging of our supposed fundamental values.

[Fireball]

Waiting for the first talking head to blame this on Obama.

To the degree that these things persisted past January 20, 2009, and the White House was aware, Obama should share the blame. Similarly, by starting us down this path, to the degree that the White House was aware, Bush shares a massive amount of the blame. The leadership of the CIA that approved, defended or continued these practices should be run out of town on a rail.

There is no justification for this sort of activity. None.

[GreenGoo]

Waiting for the first talking head to blame this on Obama.

To the degree that these things persisted past January 20, 2009, and the White House was aware, Obama should share the blame. Similarly, by starting us down this path, to the degree that the White House was aware, Bush shares a massive amount of the blame. The leadership of the CIA that approved, defended or continued these practices should be run out of town on a rail.

There is no justification for this sort of activity. None.

We had some pretty lively torture discussions here during that time period, and nothing coming out of the report is substantially different from the leaked "facts" we had back then. It is shameful. Obama came into office and "banned" this, but it continued and he was fully aware. So Obama definitely gets a kick in the teeth on this.

That said, Bush was the one that pushed this through in the first place. It's one thing to continue the awful policies of your predecessor, it's another to implement something that you know is wrong because you believe the ends justify the means (despite plenty of evidence that the means don't actually produce useful ends).

I don't let Obama off the hook by any stretch, but I haven't forgotten who took America down the rabbit hole in the first place, when he had enough political capital and popular support from the 9/11 event to do some really awful stuff, your constitution and the fundamental values your country was founded on.

I realize I'm just reiterating what others have said, but these are not new thoughts. As Lawbeef points out, this isn't new news. Everyone was well aware of these things when they were happening. Awful.

That Bush ok'd these things is one of the reasons I learned to revile the man. That Obama did nothing to change this is one of the reasons my confidence in his leadership fell significantly.

[Holman]

Waiting for the first talking head to blame this on Obama.

The usual sources will blame Dems for being willing the release the report, and they'll argue that it "puts Americans at risk," "harms American prestige," "undermines our security," and everything else we might have considered when we decided that only the Gestapo could save us.

[GreenGoo]

Waiting for the first talking head to blame this on Obama.

The usual sources will blame Dems for being willing the release the report, and they'll argue that it "puts Americans at risk," "harms American prestige," "undermines our security," and everything else we might have considered when we decided that only the Gestapo could save us.

That's already happening, particularly from the CIA. The report has not been released, only select parts of it are available right now. A Dem is threatening to read the entire thing in the senate so that it will by default become a matter of public record.

[Rip]

From what I gather reading through it neither POTUS was all that aware until the practices had pretty much ceased. Very disturbing that so much can be done in the name of our country and people with not only the POTUS being left out but pretty much all of the cabinet.

I find that far more troubling than the actual interrogations themselves. Although I am troubled by what I read about them, even though I support some limited application of enhanced techniques. They were very obviously misapplied here.

[GreenGoo]

From what I gather reading through it neither POTUS was all that aware until the practices had pretty much ceased. Very disturbing that so much can be done in the name of our country and people with not only the POTUS being left out but pretty much all of the cabinet.

I find that far more troubling than the actual interrogations themselves. Although I am troubled by what I read about them, even though I support some limited application of enhanced techniques. They were very obviously misapplied here.

I might agree with you except I'm pretty sure this is a Reagan sort of unaware. "I was aware enough to make sure no one made me aware because I know that being aware makes me vulnerable politically, so, you know, do what you gotta do just don't tell me about it".

[Rip]

Waiting for the first talking head to blame this on Obama.

The usual sources will blame Dems for being willing the release the report, and they'll argue that it "puts Americans at risk," "harms American prestige," "undermines our security," and everything else we might have considered when we decided that only the Gestapo could save us.

Stand by to be surprised. The fact that this went on without the POTUS and his cabinet being FULLY and COMPLETELY briefed infuriates me, and releasing this report was the right call. If anything I would like to see a more complete and detailed report.

[GreenGoo]

Stand by to be surprised. .

Personally when I hear "the usual culprits" I don't immediately think of you Rip.

And it's already happening. No surprise to be had. Bun fight over whether to release the whole thing or not has already started.

[LawBeefaroni]

The fact that this went on without the POTUS and his cabinet being FULLY and COMPLETELY briefed infuriates me, and releasing this report was the right call. If anything I would like to see a more complete and detailed report.

We knew about extraordinary rendition as it was happening. It is not possible that the POTUS (any POTUS) didn't know about it. Are we supposed to believe they thought abductions were for surprise birthday parties?

[RunningMn9]

And it's already happening.

Of course it is. Word for word.

[gbasden]

Waiting for the first talking head to blame this on Obama.

To the degree that these things persisted past January 20, 2009, and the White House was aware, Obama should share the blame. Similarly, by starting us down this path, to the degree that the White House was aware, Bush shares a massive amount of the blame. The leadership of the CIA that approved, defended or continued these practices should be run out of town on a rail.

There is no justification for this sort of activity. None.

I could not agree with you more. This was absolutely abhorrent and shameful.

[GreenGoo]

From Rmn9's article:

Senate GOP Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., and Sen. Saxby Chambliss, R-Ga., the top Republican on the intelligence committee, slammed the release in a joint statement on Tuesday.

"As we have both stated before, we are opposed to this study and believe it will present serious consequences for U.S. national security," they said. "Regardless of what one's opinions may be on these issues, the study by Senate Democrats is an ideologically motivated and distorted recounting of historical events. The fact that the CIA's Detention and Interrogation program developed significant intelligence that helped us identify and capture important al-Qa'ida terrorists, disrupt their ongoing plotting, and take down Usama Bin Ladin is incontrovertible. Claims included in this report that assert the contrary are simply wrong."

The roughly 500-page report, a summary of a still-classified 6,000 page study, amounts to the fullest public accounting from Congress -- at least from Democrats -- of the CIA's alleged use of torture on suspected Al Qaeda detainees held in secret facilities in Europe and Asia in the years after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

Says members of the party that is on it's 8th investigation into Benghazi.

[RunningMn9]

Says members of the party that is on it's 8th investigation into Benghazi.

Hilarious.

[Captain Caveman]

"Forced rectal rehydration" was not a phrase I imagined encountering today. It also is just the tip of the iceberg. From what details I've read, the practices were even worse and pervasive than previously imagined. And while the worst of it happened under Bush's watch, I must say it's pretty shameful that the Obama administration can't call it out for what it is, but I imagine if he did so, he'd be legally obligated to prosecute the perpetrators. So we get euphemisms and deflections instead.

[Smoove_B]

Did you do too many drugs? I did too many drugs.
Did you do too many drugs, too, baby?

Sorry...that's what I thought of from the thread title. This discussion needs a bit of levity as this is a pretty terrible stain on our history as a nation, IMHO. I'm not exactly sure what blaming does at this point but numerous elected officials need to come out and address how this will never happen again. And not in a "We're going to get to the bottom of this..." with empty speeches that are given to appease the base.

[Kraken]

When the Abu Ghraib photos broke I remarked that I was glad my dad, the WW2 vet, hadn't lived to see them. As much as it bothered cynical old me, it would have been a major kick in the gut to him.

[Grundbegriff]

Here's a fascinating counterpoint written by a covert chap who describes himself this way:

I have worked at the highest operational level almost every step along the way. I speak Arabic and Persian Farsi. I was a Senior Interrogator in the principle, theater-level interrogation facility during the first Gulf War, then ran interrogation operations in Mogadishu, Somalia during the Black Hawk Down days – I was on the last plane out of Mogadishu in March 1994. I then spent 7 years posted at embassies in the Middle East, debriefing everything from visa applicants to walk-in sources to defectors, scientists, suspected terrorists, and any other potentially-valuable source that popped up in the Middle East during my tenure. In the Iraq war, I ran interrogation and debriefing operations on the Iraqi High Value Detainees (the ‘Deck of Cards’ government, military, intelligence and scientific personnel captured during the war).

You have to wade through a few pages of partisan blather before arriving at the interesting claims and arguments.

[RunningMn9]

How do you write those first three pages, and then ask me to put aside MY political bias? Are you shitting me?

I'll keep reading but I'm not happy about it.

[GreenGoo]

Unfortunately I couldn't get through to the bits you

How do you write those first three pages, and then ask me to put aside MY political bias? Are you shitting me?

I'll keep reading but I'm not happy about it.

Heh. I actually started to write my own "I can't get through the nonsense to get to the useful bits. I'll try again later".

So you keep reading and get back to us. I'm not sure I can glean anything useful from it.

edit: It's hard to take him seriously when he paints early protestors as opportunists looking to sell their books. I wonder what a legitimate protestor within the organization would look like to him?

I get that he's bitter and feels he's been hung out to dry, but no shit. He knew what he was doing would get him hung out to dry if it became public, and it has. He thought he had support from higher up? Well I'm sure he did, until it all went south. Now we're supposed to take his word on these events? You don't get to be a whistle blower after the fact. We call those people criminals. Well, we also call whistle blowers before and during the fact criminals (and terrorists!) too, but that's besides the point.

That the report is self serving is a given. This is politics after all. That it is false is by no means a given, and counter claiming that it is does nothing to convince me.

[paulbaxter]

"Forced rectal rehydration" was not a phrase I imagined encountering today. It also is just the tip of the iceberg. From what details I've read, the practices were even worse and pervasive than previously imagined. And while the worst of it happened under Bush's watch, I must say it's pretty shameful that the Obama administration can't call it out for what it is, but I imagine if he did so, he'd be legally obligated to prosecute the perpetrators. So we get euphemisms and deflections instead.

I can't imagine any particular word I want to see after "forced rectal"

[Grundbegriff]

Here's the unofficial-wink-wink institutional rebuttal.

[Holman]

Here's the unofficial-wink-wink institutional rebuttal.

"CIA [REDACTED] lives."

[Jeff V]

Last night, I was on the hamster wheel at the gym, watching CNN coverage of this while listening to an audiobook on Catherine the Great. At the same moment they were reporting that the report concluded the torture was ineffective, the audiobook was talking about how Catherine banned torture in Russia because it was not effective! She was enlightened on this 350 years ago, just goes to show how Bush and his ilk are determined to push us back to the Dark Ages.

[GreenGoo]

Last night, I was on the hamster wheel at the gym, watching CNN coverage of this while listening to an audiobook on Catherine the Great. At the same moment they were reporting that the report concluded the torture was ineffective, the audiobook was talking about how Catherine banned torture in Russia because it was not effective! She was enlightened on this 350 years ago, just goes to show how Bush and his ilk are determined to push us back to the Dark Ages.

No offense, but the legit site http://www.ciasavedlives.com begs to differ. I'll take former CIA agents who were involved in torturing people's word over that of some imaginary historical figurine.

Has no one seen 24?

[Rip]

All they need to do to clear their reputation is release the real details if the program did in fact do good. As long as they operate under a cloak of secrecy and lies I am unwilling to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I am sure there are those who will point to the damage that releasing information will do, but at this point I would suggest that the damage of not releasing it will be far more harmful to their operations. The days of the public blindly supporting these things are over.

[GreenGoo]

I've seen enough claims that the EIT helped identify the courier that pointed to Osama that there is probably some truth to it. Whether it was due to the EIT, or they just got lucky, or some other spin that made EIT invaluable to the courier thing, I have no idea. I assume there is at least a tenuous connection there, and possibly more.

That being said, who gives a fuck. Sure it was great to murder Osama. He deserved it. I'm not sure it justifies a systemic use of torture, but kudos for finding him.

[GreenGoo]

The days of the public blindly supporting these things are over.

If only I could believe that were true.

[Smoove_B]

All they need to do to clear their reputation is release the real details if the program did in fact do good.

I cannot imagine what they could reveal where I would think, "Well, I guess the forced rectal re-hydration was a good idea then."

It seems like this is collectively moving towards a "I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it" argument.

[Isgrimnur]

You want me on that enema bag! You NEED ME on that enema bag!

[RunningMn9]

Here's the unofficial-wink-wink institutional rebuttal.

They lost me at:

the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence Republican Minority...are clear-eyed, fact-based assessments which challenge the Majority's contention in a nonpartisan way.

I find that hard to believe. That said, I am unmotivated to care about the actual report in question either. I view it in the same hyperpartisan light that I would view any Benghazi horseshit that the Republicans tried to make me believe.

I have no faith in the truthiness of any of them.

[Skinypupy]

Waiting for the first talking head to blame this on Obama.

The usual sources will blame Dems for being willing the release the report, and they'll argue that it "puts Americans at risk," "harms American prestige," "undermines our security," and everything else we might have considered when we decided that only the Gestapo could save us.

No, it was really released because "America is awesome" and Dems are hell-bent on making us look like we're not.

No, really, that's what they said.

Co-host Andrea Tantaros accused Democrats of resurfacing torture techniques that the CIA has already stopped using for political reasons.

"The Bush administration did what the American public wanted, and that was do whatever it takes to keep us safe. These terror tactics have been stopped because as a country we decided we are better than this," she said. "It’s not about democracy now. No, no. It’s about politics."

Tantaros then exploded and asserted several times that the U.S. is simply "awesome."

"The United States of America is awesome, we are awesome," she said. "We’ve closed the book on it, and we’ve stopped doing it. And the reason they want to have this discussion is not to show how awesome we are. This administration wants to have this discussion to show us how we’re not awesome."

[Pyperkub]

She was what - 23 when 9/11 happened? And maybe 11 when the Berlin Wall fell?

She has no clue what America stands for (besides bashing Democrats).

[LawBeefaroni]

Sorry, we're not "awesome" now because less than a decade ago we sold out some of our most fundamental values because we were afraid. The world's greatest superpower afraid of a group of globally impotent lunatics so much so that we brought all our considerable might to bear simply to drop ourselves down to their level.

What is 8 years in the life of a nation, in terms of people-years? A few months? Hopefully a few days or weeks, right?

So it's like I beat the shit out of someone last week and then say, well, I'm past that now. Why dredge up the past when I'm doing such great things now? I condemn violence and just this morning I helped an old lady across the street. I just love how a change in an adminstration or two is supposed to signal the cleansing of all past misdeeds.

Obama's America is Bush's America is Clinton's America. Sins are shared across adminisstrations. Only those steeped in US partisan politics think they're different countries.

[GreenGoo]

Sorry, we're not "awesome" now because less than a decade ago we sold out some of our most fundamental values because we were afraid. The world's greatest superpower afraid of a group of globally impotent lunatics so much so that we brought all our considerable might to bear simply to drop ourselves down to their level.

*hugz*

We all thought so highly of you, too.

Of course it's easy to criticize when I'm in even less danger from terrorism than the average American, but one of the things people love about America is the idea that people have rights that are inalienable.

To watch your population allow those rights to be chipped away at because you were attacked was appalling. Those rights don't exist only for the "good times". They are inalienable, or are supposed to be.

I wasn't arround for Pearl Harbour, and I'm not much of a historian, and I know Americans with Japanese heritage were treated atrociously, but I wonder how the country as a whole reacted? What was the political atmosphere then? What would the man on the street have to say?

[GreenGoo]

I want to say that it's important to remember the things that ARE awesome. It's easy to criticize and every administration is going to be the worst one ever and you can get stuck in a negativity spiral that just never stops.

Remembering the things that are awesome is something America never had problems with before. Hopefully political wrangling doesn't cast everything in a negative light, forever.

Even more important, is to try to fix the things that aren't awesome. Sure what's done is done, but it's important that the future doesn't just repeat the past.