Combat Mission vs Close Combat

[Scanner]

Ok, from reading the RTS thread I see there's a lot more Close Combat love out there than I realized. I thought all the Advanced Squad Leader fans/WW2 grognards had migrated from Close Combat to Combat Mission, but apparently I was wrong.

So which is the true winner of this one-on-one WW2 small-arms tactical showdown?

And yes, I realize Steel Panthers is not included. Poll limits, poll limits! Next time!

[Jeff V]

Close Combat remains to this day one of the worst gaming purchases I ever made. The magazines talked me into buying it with their 5-star reviews. I played two scenarios - I hadn't a clue what I was doing, yet my ant-like digital pinheads won despite this handicap from their commanding officer.

I never played it again (cue sound of $50 being flushed). Real wargames are turn-based.

[raydude]

The first close combat game was unlike anything I had ever seen. I thought the presentation was great, and I liked the cut-scenes in between groups of missions. And the progress bar underneath let me know how far along in the campaign I was, and whether I was falling behind the historical achievements.

However, I believe the first one and maybe "Close Combat: A Bridge Too Far" suffered from precise German mortar bombardment. I mean, those guys could put a hit right on my troops within the first 2 shots. Meanwhile my guys couldn't hit the broad side of a barn.

Then I believe a patch was released which toned down their superhuman accuracy to more realistic levels.

The more I got to playing Close Combat though, the more I started finding flaws. I didn't like the way my guys would crawl around a lot, even when I told them to hold position. It would be obnoxious when a few would crawl over a wall and be exposed to enemy fire, instead of hunkering down and NOT MOVING like I told them to.

However, it seemed like later iterations of Close Combat did not release anything new other than a different theater. I stopped after Close Combat III.

Combat Mission was also something I had not seen before, but its major difference was releasing something new (IMHO) with every iteration. Combat Mission BarBarossa to Berlin introduced the "move to contact" order and "sound cue icons". This was great as I could at least "hear" the enemy trying to move to my flanks. Afrika Korps introduced "dust clouds" which was even better. I was now able to see how Rommel could use deception tactics by moving lightly armored vehicles in front of the heavies to screen them with dust.

I believe Combat Mission also models the command and control a little better. I like the "command delay" that is built into the game. Ordering units to do complicated maneuvers adds to the amount of time before they actually move. Same thing with ordering units that are not in range of an HQ unit. I don't remember Close Combat modeling anything like that, since my units seemed to move immediately after I give a move order.

They are two different types of games though, and I like both styles. I wish Close Combat were supported better and that the dev team were more responsive to feedback. I also wish I was able to play another human in the games I did have. It seems easier to find opponents and time to play them with the PBEM style of Combat Mission.

So I voted for Combat Mission: Afrika Korps.

[Lassr]

Of those I like Close Combat 2 the most followed very closely by Combat Mission BO (not because of accuracy but just the fun factor. If I want accuracy I stick with the CM series), really it's virtually a tie between the two but I went with the one I have played the most.

If I ranked all those, it would be
1. CC 2 & CMBO
2. CM AK
3. CM BB
4. CC 3
5. CC 5
6. CC 4
7. CC 1

[JonathanStrange]

Combat Mission: Barbarossa to Berlin was my vote (and I've played most of the candidates) because it refined the original Combat Mission's design and focused on the Eastern Front. CMBB for me combines realistic tactics, Hollywood action, massive replayability, and thoughtful decisions.

Although I've played and enjoyed the Close Combat series, I think it's more because of the WW2 theme than for the gameplay: plus the AI has never been too impressive.

Steel Panthers was probably my favorite old-style turn-based game: simple combat and graphics and so-so AI but damn if I didn't play dozens and dozens of different battles.

It's sad that games like CMBB or Steel Panthers aren't better known outside more dedicated gamers.

[godhugh]

Close Combat 3: The Russian Front was an amazing game. Some of the tank battles I got involved in were epic.

I haven't played the Combat Mission games yet, even though I've meant too. Is there a collection pack or what's the best one to start with nowadays?

[MahaROGa]

I voted CM:BO, because it was the first one and I put more hours into it than the other two Combat Missions. I played CC: A Bridge too far and it just doesn't cut it compared to Combat Mission.

I highly recommend the Combat Mission games to anyone who likes WWII tactical strategy. I really don't think that there has ever been a better tactical level WWII game. I had a real hard time understanding Combat Mission when I first tried it, the "WE GO" system is (or was) unique and so I couldn't just jump right in without reading some tutorial info. But after you understand the system (which isn't that hard, it's just different) this is the coolest game ever! It has the pacing of a TBS with the action of a RTS. The only minus is that they don't have a good 3D engine and so the graphics are not up to par, but the quality of the game play makes it easy for me to overlook that issue.

Godhugh, I would recommend that you start with CM:AK or CM:BB as they have better graphics than the original. The original does have some mods to improve the graphics but I don't think that they really bring it up to the level of the last two. I also recommend CM:BB and CM:AK because you mentioned tank battles, those two have more good scenarios with a large number of tanks than CM:BO. In CM:BO you mostly get a history lesson about how crappy the American tanks were .

[Kratz]

Real wargames are turn-based.

Real war isn't.

[raydude]

Real wargames are turn-based.

Real war isn't.

real-time isn't "real time" either. If it were, then Hearts of Iron 2 would take at least 4 years to finish.

[yossar]

Real wargames are turn-based.

Real war isn't.

real-time isn't "real time" either. If it were, then Hearts of Iron 2 would take at least 4 years to finish.

It's accelarated real time. Isn't that close enough? Turn-based is completely different.

[raydude]

Real wargames are turn-based.

Real war isn't.

real-time isn't "real time" either. If it were, then Hearts of Iron 2 would take at least 4 years to finish.

It's accelarated real time. Isn't that close enough? Turn-based is completely different.

Not remotely close for operational level and above. Representing the decisions of a multitude of leaders and the will of a nation into a few seconds of "accelerated real-time" doesn't do justice to the amount of decision making required. Hence turn-based is perfectly acceptable for wargames simulating the movement of regiments or higher.

Ex. a turn-based game simulating the Eastern Front - units represent divisions and turns represent 1 week. Even if I take 1 day to do my turn it
is still faster than it took historically - hence it is no more unrealistic than a "real-time" game.

[Napoleon]

Close Combat 3: The Russian Front was an amazing game. Some of the tank battles I got involved in were epic.

I haven't played the Combat Mission games yet, even though I've meant too. Is there a collection pack or what's the best one to start with nowadays?

There's an Anthology pack in Europe, which includes all three games. Not sure if it's available in the US. You might want to check GoGamer.
[Edit: There you go

I can heartily recommend Combat Mission: lot's of fun. That being said, my vote was for Close Combat 2: Bridge too far. Mainly because I've never played another game that (for me, at least) portrayed frantic infantry battles as fascinatingly as that one.

When playing a wargame, I love to play the defender, trying to hold onto my objectives with all I've got. CC2 is perfect for that. Also, I got really attached to my little soldiers for some reason. Add to that the fact that it's set in Holland, and you have a winner.

[RookieCAF]

Close Combat - Click Fest. No Way No How.

Combat Mission (Any version) 4TW

[Two Sheds]

Of the listed, I've only played (and absolutely LOVED) CMBO. I've been meaning to pick up CMBB for a while now, but I've never gotten around to it.

Hey, I could have sworn I saw screenshots and an article a while back about a new Combat Mission sequel in the works with updated graphics and whatnot. Not Afrika Corps, but a newer one. I can't seem to find anything on it now. Was I imagining things?