Octopus Overlords

I think that Donald Trump is second only to Ronald Reagan in the destruction of the social safety net.

This guy is good at fucking the poor and working class.

I figured we would have seen a collapse or revolution by now.

Didn't you hear? The war on poverty is over. The rich won.

I'm as working class as working class can be, and I'm not hurting in any way, shape or form since Trump took office.
In fact, probably doing better now than I have in years.
So yeah....dont speak for me.
(and for the record, no....I didn't vote for him).

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:53 am I'm as working class as working class can be, and I'm not hurting in any way, shape or form since Trump took office.
In fact, probably doing better now than I have in years.
So yeah....dont speak for me.
(and for the record, no....I didn't vote for him).

I'm haven't been personally hurt financially either, unless you count a $1 trillion annual deficit by 2020 as the result of corporate tax cuts with an increase in spending. Which I do count because it muddies retirement and saddles my kids with unsustainable national debt.

The other thing here, is it's not just about what's hitting you personally. What happens to someone else can just as easily happen to you.

2008 was prefaced by foreclosures. If you weren't a "deadbeat" home owner you had nothing to worry about from predatory banks and their illegal practices, right? Right now it's just a president tinkering with the economy and if you aren't affected directly by tariffs, no worries, ain't nothing that can go wrong.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:19 amit's not just about what's hitting you personally.

The core of the problem with modern conservatism is that it is *entirely* about what's hitting you personally, right now.

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:19 am

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:53 am I'm as working class as working class can be, and I'm not hurting in any way, shape or form since Trump took office.
In fact, probably doing better now than I have in years.
So yeah....dont speak for me.
(and for the record, no....I didn't vote for him).

I'm haven't been personally hurt financially either, unless you count a $1 trillion annual deficit by 2020 as the result of corporate tax cuts with an increase in spending. Which I do count because it muddies retirement and saddles my kids with unsustainable national debt.

The other thing here, is it's not just about what's hitting you personally. What happens to someone else can just as easily happen to you.

2008 was prefaced by foreclosures. If you weren't a "deadbeat" home owner you had nothing to worry about from predatory banks and their illegal practices, right? Right now it's just a president tinkering with the economy and if you aren't affected directly by tariffs, no worries, ain't nothing that can go wrong.

You're really putting the deficit on Trump? Negates any validity to the rest of your points, if so. And who was in office in 2008 and all the preceding years leading up to the housing crisis? And Drazzil lumped the whole middle class into his post. I'm just pointing out that not ALL of the middle class is suffering just because a President he doesn't like is in office,

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:03 am

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:19 am

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:53 am I'm as working class as working class can be, and I'm not hurting in any way, shape or form since Trump took office.
In fact, probably doing better now than I have in years.
So yeah....dont speak for me.
(and for the record, no....I didn't vote for him).

I'm haven't been personally hurt financially either, unless you count a $1 trillion annual deficit by 2020 as the result of corporate tax cuts with an increase in spending. Which I do count because it muddies retirement and saddles my kids with unsustainable national debt.

The other thing here, is it's not just about what's hitting you personally. What happens to someone else can just as easily happen to you.

2008 was prefaced by foreclosures. If you weren't a "deadbeat" home owner you had nothing to worry about from predatory banks and their illegal practices, right? Right now it's just a president tinkering with the economy and if you aren't affected directly by tariffs, no worries, ain't nothing that can go wrong.

You're really putting the deficit on Trump? Negates any validity to the rest of your points, if so. And who was in office in 2008 and all the preceding years leading up to the housing crisis?

Trump has made it twice as bad.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:07 am

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:03 am

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:19 am

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:53 am I'm as working class as working class can be, and I'm not hurting in any way, shape or form since Trump took office.
In fact, probably doing better now than I have in years.
So yeah....dont speak for me.
(and for the record, no....I didn't vote for him).

I'm haven't been personally hurt financially either, unless you count a $1 trillion annual deficit by 2020 as the result of corporate tax cuts with an increase in spending. Which I do count because it muddies retirement and saddles my kids with unsustainable national debt.

The other thing here, is it's not just about what's hitting you personally. What happens to someone else can just as easily happen to you.

2008 was prefaced by foreclosures. If you weren't a "deadbeat" home owner you had nothing to worry about from predatory banks and their illegal practices, right? Right now it's just a president tinkering with the economy and if you aren't affected directly by tariffs, no worries, ain't nothing that can go wrong.

You're really putting the deficit on Trump? Negates any validity to the rest of your points, if so. And who was in office in 2008 and all the preceding years leading up to the housing crisis?

Trump has made it twice as bad.

Yeah...thats great, except the budget for 2017 was set by Obama.

MarketWatch

The Trump administration expects the annual budget deficits to rise nearly $100 billion more than previously forecast in each of the next three years, pushing the federal deficit above $1 trillion starting next year.

The revisions, which went largely unnoticed when the White House submitted its annual update to Congress last week, reflect the cost of federal spending increases agreed to earlier this year and higher interest payments.

The budget proposal released in February showed annual deficits totaling $7.1 trillion over 10 years. The latest revisions increase these cumulative deficits by $926 billion, to $8 trillion.
...
The White House budget office now estimates that the deficit will rise to nearly $1.1 trillion in the fiscal year that begins this October, or 5.1% of gross domestic product, up from $984 billion projected in February’s budget proposal. The U.S. ran a deficit of $666 billion for the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30, 2017, or 3.4% of GDP.

Forbes

President Obama’s debt actually grew at a slower annual rate than any of the Republican presidents even though there were events that negatively impacted the deficit that started before he became President. The Great Recession is probably the biggest of them as can be seen in the yearly deficit numbers. While all politicians use data to support their positions, the sound bite that the debt doubled under Obama is very misleading.

RunningMn9 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:31 am

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:19 amit's not just about what's hitting you personally.

The core of the problem with modern conservatism is that it is *entirely* about what's hitting you personally, right now.

I wonder which of us here the SALT exemption change is going to kick in the ass? As a TX resident, I don't have state income tax to deduct anyway, but my total property taxes will be over the limit, so I'll feel it a little. I feel really bad for some of y'all in high state tax/high property value areas though.

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:11 am
Yeah...thats great, except the budget for 2017 was set by Obama.

2017 budget called for a $500B deficit.

2018 called for a $800B deficit.

2019 calls for a $985B deficit.

And as noted in Isg's article, 2019 is already set to blow past $1T. Nothing like starting out a quarter trillion over budget. But no pain for the working class. Nope. Chickens never come home to roost on the working class.

It costs money to fix what others have fucked up.

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:29 am It costs money to fix what others have fucked up.

Setting aside the obvious that every president inherits past administration problems, deficits and costs aren't the same thing. Money can be spent without a deficit. But when you decrease revenue without reducing spending, you increase a deficit. When you decrease revenue and increase spending, you turbo charge a deficit. And when you throw in increased goveenment meddling in the free market, you take it all to a new level.

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:11 am

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:19 amunless you count a $1 trillion annual deficit by 2020 as the result of corporate tax cuts with an increase in spending.

Yeah...thats great, except the budget for 2017 was set by Obama.

LawBeef didn't talk about the FY 2017 budget. He mentioned the FY 2020 budget. Will that be set by Obama too?

RunningMn9 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:59 am

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:11 am

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:19 amunless you count a $1 trillion annual deficit by 2020 as the result of corporate tax cuts with an increase in spending.

Yeah...thats great, except the budget for 2017 was set by Obama.

LawBeef didn't talk about the FY 2017 budget. He mentioned the FY 2020 budget. Will that be set by Obama too?

Nice editing. That was in response to noxiousdog's comment that Trump had made the budget twice as bad..

geezer wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:17 amI wonder which of us here the SALT exemption change is going to kick in the ass? As a TX resident, I don't have state income tax to deduct anyway, but my total property taxes will be over the limit, so I'll feel it a little. I feel really bad for some of y'all in high state tax/high property value areas though.

My property tax is over the limit. My mortgage interest is over the limit. My state income tax is about 3/4 of the limit. However, with the change in rate, and the bigger standard deduction, I'll have to wait until tax time to see if I get fisted.

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:02 pmNice editing. That was in response to noxiousdog's comment that Trump had made the budget twice as bad..

Are you serious?

LawBeef referenced FY2020, which is what you responded to, by talking about 2008 and all the years leading up to the housing crisis. ND responded to that, saying that Trump has made it twice as bad (because $1T is twice as bad as $500B). To which you responded that the FY 2017 budget was set by Obama (which it wasn't, but I that's a different issue).

My "editing" was to get you back on point.

The tax cuts were so ridiculous that Republicans decided to partially pay for them by unfairly taxing Blue States. I left the Republican Party nearly two decades ago over bad tax policy and deficit spending.

I read somewhere recently that 3/4 of the national debt comes from Republican administrations/tax cuts over the past 40 years.

RunningMn9 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:19 pm

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:02 pmNice editing. That was in response to noxiousdog's comment that Trump had made the budget twice as bad..

Are you serious?

LawBeef referenced FY2020, which is what you responded to, by talking about 2008 and all the years leading up to the housing crisis. ND responded to that, saying that Trump has made it twice as bad (because $1T is twice as bad as $500B). To which you responded that the FY 2017 budget was set by Obama (which it wasn't, but I that's a different issue).

My "editing" was to get you back on point.

I'm sure ND appreciates you clarifying what he meant.
And thanks for getting me back on point. Can you help with directions to Best Buy?

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:11 am

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:07 am

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:03 am

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:19 am

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:53 am I'm as working class as working class can be, and I'm not hurting in any way, shape or form since Trump took office.
In fact, probably doing better now than I have in years.
So yeah....dont speak for me.
(and for the record, no....I didn't vote for him).

I'm haven't been personally hurt financially either, unless you count a $1 trillion annual deficit by 2020 as the result of corporate tax cuts with an increase in spending. Which I do count because it muddies retirement and saddles my kids with unsustainable national debt.

The other thing here, is it's not just about what's hitting you personally. What happens to someone else can just as easily happen to you.

2008 was prefaced by foreclosures. If you weren't a "deadbeat" home owner you had nothing to worry about from predatory banks and their illegal practices, right? Right now it's just a president tinkering with the economy and if you aren't affected directly by tariffs, no worries, ain't nothing that can go wrong.

You're really putting the deficit on Trump? Negates any validity to the rest of your points, if so. And who was in office in 2008 and all the preceding years leading up to the housing crisis?

Trump has made it twice as bad.

Yeah...thats great, except the budget for 2017 was set by Obama.

That's great, except I'm talking about the next 10 years after the new tax cuts.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:24 pm

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:11 am

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:07 am

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:03 am

LawBeefaroni wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:19 am

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:53 am I'm as working class as working class can be, and I'm not hurting in any way, shape or form since Trump took office.
In fact, probably doing better now than I have in years.
So yeah....dont speak for me.
(and for the record, no....I didn't vote for him).

I'm haven't been personally hurt financially either, unless you count a $1 trillion annual deficit by 2020 as the result of corporate tax cuts with an increase in spending. Which I do count because it muddies retirement and saddles my kids with unsustainable national debt.

The other thing here, is it's not just about what's hitting you personally. What happens to someone else can just as easily happen to you.

2008 was prefaced by foreclosures. If you weren't a "deadbeat" home owner you had nothing to worry about from predatory banks and their illegal practices, right? Right now it's just a president tinkering with the economy and if you aren't affected directly by tariffs, no worries, ain't nothing that can go wrong.

You're really putting the deficit on Trump? Negates any validity to the rest of your points, if so. And who was in office in 2008 and all the preceding years leading up to the housing crisis?

Trump has made it twice as bad.

Yeah...thats great, except the budget for 2017 was set by Obama.

That's great, except I'm talking about the next 10 years after the new tax cuts.

And the guy after Trump with make it even more. And the guy after the guy after Trump will make it even more. And so on and so on.....

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:26 pm And the guy after Trump with make it even more. And the guy after the guy after Trump will make it even more. And so on and so on.....

So if we are all in agreement that Trump is demonstrably making the deficit worse, what was the point of drawing our attention to the FY 2017 budget being Obama's fault?

Just to reiterate that even though Trump was in office in 2017, he didn't plan the budget for that year, which, btw, increased over the previous year..

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:26 pm And the guy after Trump with make it even more. And the guy after the guy after Trump will make it even more. And so on and so on.....

Your premise is incorrect. 7 administrations. There's a clear pattern here.

Carter - No meaningful change of deficit/gdp ratio.
Reagan - Ran triple Carter's deficit/gdp for 6 of his eight years, though was only slightly higher that Carter's at the end of his term.
H. W Bush - Increased the deficit ratio by about 50%.
Clinton - Last president with a surplus.
Bush - Exploded the deficit to the worst it has ever been. 5 times higher than the average gdp/deficit ratio.
Obama - Decreased the gdp/deficit ratio back to the 1968-2017 average.
Trump - Expected to increase the ratio 2.5 times.

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:03 am And Drazzil lumped the whole middle class into his post.

You read your own perception into his post. He referred to "poor and working class" - and his interpretation of "working class" is not middle class (especially considering that right now, technically, he's neither).

So we are really talking programs for the poor and the working poor.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:37 pm

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:26 pm And the guy after Trump with make it even more. And the guy after the guy after Trump will make it even more. And so on and so on.....

Your premise is incorrect. 7 administrations. There's a clear pattern here.

Carter - No meaningful change of deficit/gdp ratio.
Reagan - Ran triple Carter's deficit/gdp for 6 of his eight years, though was only slightly higher that Carter's at the end of his term.
H. W Bush - Increased the deficit ratio by about 50%.
Clinton - Last president with a surplus.
Bush - Exploded the deficit to the worst it has ever been. 5 times higher than the average gdp/deficit ratio.
Obama - Decreased the gdp/deficit ratio back to the 1968-2017 average.
Trump - Expected to increase the ratio 2.5 times.

I hope that holds true, but with the full and utter incompetence of the current Congress and the way politics are handled, I have my doubts.

gilraen wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:42 pm

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:03 am And Drazzil lumped the whole middle class into his post.

You read your own perception into his post. He referred to "poor and working class" - and his interpretation of "working class" is not middle class (especially considering that right now, technically, he's neither).

So we are really talking programs for the poor and the working poor.

Yeah...I see working class and middle class as being the same.
If that's not what he meant, I was wrong.

2018. In a nutshell.

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:24 pm
That's great, except I'm talking about the next 10 years after the new tax cuts.

The same ones that turn into a pumpkin (tax hike) after 5 years? Unless you are obscenely wealthy, that is.

Jeff V wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:59 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:24 pm
That's great, except I'm talking about the next 10 years after the new tax cuts.

The same ones that turn into a pumpkin (tax hike) after 5 years? Unless you are obscenely wealthy, that is.

CBO projections are CBO projections. It's the best we have with current data.

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:53 am I'm as working class as working class can be, and I'm not hurting in any way, shape or form since Trump took office.

Perhaps you're just not seeing the harm, but it is there. After the passage of the ACA, growth in health insurance premiums for similar plans slowed down compared to the preceding decade; the 2019 premiums are being announced now, and the spikes are larger almost everywhere than they were under Obama, and in many places even larger than the pre-ACA annual premium increases. That's going to cost you a lot of money that you wouldn't have paid if the cost curve hadn't been changed by Trump.

Also, by cutting away at the safety net now, when we're still in a records-long period of employment growth, Trump is ensuring that the *next* recession (which is overdue at this point) will hurt a lot worse than the last one. You won't notice that the net has been frayed beyond repair until you need it to break your fall.

And that's setting aside the fact that Trump is making the air you breathe dirtier, the water you drink less pure, and is setting us on a course for a worst-case-scenario for climate change, which will wreak the greatest economic devastation in American history if it comes to pass.

Trump has America off a cliff. As we fall, a climber on the wall has asked us, "Hey, how's it going?" Your answer, it seems, is, "so far, so good."

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:29 am It costs money to fix what others have fucked up.

What is Trump spending money on "fixing"?

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:44 pm

noxiousdog wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:37 pm

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:26 pm And the guy after Trump with make it even more. And the guy after the guy after Trump will make it even more. And so on and so on.....

Your premise is incorrect. 7 administrations. There's a clear pattern here.

Carter - No meaningful change of deficit/gdp ratio.
Reagan - Ran triple Carter's deficit/gdp for 6 of his eight years, though was only slightly higher that Carter's at the end of his term.
H. W Bush - Increased the deficit ratio by about 50%.
Clinton - Last president with a surplus.
Bush - Exploded the deficit to the worst it has ever been. 5 times higher than the average gdp/deficit ratio.
Obama - Decreased the gdp/deficit ratio back to the 1968-2017 average.
Trump - Expected to increase the ratio 2.5 times.

I hope that holds true, but with the full and utter incompetence of the current Congress and the way politics are handled, I have my doubts.

You hope the deficit to GDP ration increases by 250% under Trump?!

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:46 pm

gilraen wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:42 pm

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:03 am And Drazzil lumped the whole middle class into his post.

You read your own perception into his post. He referred to "poor and working class" - and his interpretation of "working class" is not middle class (especially considering that right now, technically, he's neither).

So we are really talking programs for the poor and the working poor.

Yeah...I see working class and middle class as being the same.
If that's not what he meant, I was wrong.

The middle class and the working class are absolutely not the same thing.

The "everything is fine for me so meh" attitude is maddening.

It is demonstrably worse for many. We're out of control in the news in so many ways: foreign policy, economic policy, environmental policy, etc. If you can't see the problem, you're not paying attention.

And a blatant reduction of benefits isn't the only impact on the poor. Keeping the benefits the same in the face of inflation is a de-facto reduction in benefits without having to lift a finger. I've had my overall benefits stay about the same for the past five or six years. I'll get a 1% increase in monetary income, which is then countered with a 2% decrease in some other area due to the extra income. Net result has been almost no change.

And yet my rent has increased by about a third, my phone by about 20%, my power and heating have increased, and food has consistently cost more. So even though I'm making about the same as I was five or six years ago, I'm noticeably worse off. In 2011 I'd pay my bills and set aside my food budget and have $150-$200 left over for miscellaneous expenses for the month. Now I have about $20 after expenses, if I'm lucky. And I've had to cancel services to maintain that.

I'm not pointing this at Trump or Bush or Obama or Putin's housekeeper. I'm just pointing out that there are more ways to screw the poor than by outright cancelling programs.

Fireball wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:09 pm

Yeah...I see working class and middle class as being the same.
If that's not what he meant, I was wrong.

The middle class and the working class are absolutely not the same thing.

Especially when Trump only recognizes those with class (ie, those who golf with him at Mar-a-lago) and those without class (the rest of us chattel).

My take on this President is no different than any President before.
ALL of them look out for themselves and theirs.

The bones we are left to pick at will never be enough to please everyone.
So yeah....I take the same attitude. I cant save the world, but I can damn sure protect my little inch of it.
Sometimes the crap they do works out in my favor. Sometimes not. I'm not naive enough to think that I can make a lick of difference. Sue me.
You all can lose sleep over trying to fix shit so everyone is treated equal. How's that been working out for the last forever years?
I'm sure Washington is waiting to hear your thoughts, as they have been for years, through good and bad.
By the people, for the people was thrown out the window a long, long, long, long time ago. They're gonna do what THEY think is right or beneficial or gonna fatten their already bulging pockets.

stimpy wrote: ↑Mon Jul 30, 2018 3:47 pm My take on this President is no different than any President before.
ALL of them look out for themselves and theirs.

The bones we are left to pick at will never be enough to please everyone.
So yeah....I take the same attitude. I cant save the world, but I can damn sure protect my little inch of it.
Sometimes the crap they do works out in my favor. Sometimes not. I'm not naive enough to think that I can make a lick of difference. Sue me.
You all can lose sleep over trying to fix shit so everyone is treated equal. How's that been working out for the last forever years?
I'm sure Washington is waiting to hear your thoughts, as they have been for years, through good and bad.
By the people, for the people was thrown out the window a long, long, long, long time ago. They're gonna do what THEY think is right or beneficial or gonna fatten their already bulging pockets.

You are being naive. This president is doing things beyond the pale and counting on you not to notice. You can make a difference. Call your representative and your senator. Don't make statements on which you don't really know without expressing it as conjecture.

I am not an alarmist. I don't believe Bush was that bad. I don't believe Obama was that good.

Trump is that bad and the party that supports him is worse.