Middara: Unintentional Malum Thread (Potential Light Spoilers)

[YellowKing]

Since a few of us here own the game now and may be playing it for quite some time. starting a spoiler Middara thread so we don't have to constantly use spoiler tags or clog up the solo gaming thread with strategy discussion and rules questions.

[Edit] It occurred to me that because we'll be at different points in the game, anything encounter or storyline specific I'll still use spoiler tags. Anything regarding general rules, strategy, or enemies, I'm OK not using tags.

[hepcat]

From the solo thread:

Spoiler:

The Water Loas to me are weak sauce, as long as you don't get two allies right next to them, or stay so far enough away that they do their Move and Attack. The sweet spot is to just stay within their SOI, as then all they do is cast that lame Force 6 water spell that is easy to resist. You don't want them actually attacking since you're probably standing in water and can't dodge. Granted they are difficult to damage due to the Arcane, but I don't consider them overly dangerous as long as you stay in SOI.

Likewise with Cave Sickles, it's all about just making sure you never let them start adjacent to you and get that triple attack in (I know, easier said than done). For those the sweet spot is their Move and Attack, so they're all about staying as far away as possible until they go, then move in and finish them off.

The Gevaudan...well yeah I've got nothing to make them any easier other than get lucky with a bunch of throwing knives (which I no longer have).

I love that each monster requires different tactics, and I think that's why the combat is so fulfilling for me compared to other games where essentially each monster is a data point that you always move next to and hit. You would think knowing exactly what the monster will do on its turn would be boring, but instead it becomes this cool tactical puzzle where you're constantly weighing the risks. It's kind of a reverse Gloomhaven. Where in GH the monster's behavior is randomized and initiative is (at least partially) known, in Middara the monster's behavior is known, and initiative is randomized. Both provide a very satisfying puzzle experience, but with two very different approaches.

Are you sure you're playing the Water Loas correctly? The Spell 6 within SOI hits for 6 plus their white casting dice...and it does so against the character with the lowest conviction roll possibility. If you fail to beat that with your conviction roll, you suffer 2 plus the difference you failed by. That's what killed me last game. I wasn't rolling very well on the conviction rolls for one or two of my characters, and they were doing some pretty serious damage to them. They also heal 2 on every starburst on their attack/spell dice, and add +1 to the casting roll/attack roll for every book.

The cave sickles aren't that bad, true...unless they get you with the Force 9 follow up that puts a poison token on you. THAT'S the awful part. Magic Balm is a must have if you're fighting them. Unlike other games like this, status tokens don't just fade away from what I see. So they can last from encounter to encounter if there aren't any restore breaks between them. Damage at least you can restore to half health if you go over that/or you're defeated in the previous encounter.

The Gevaudan? Yeah, screw those guys. Thankfully they start off sleeping I believe in encounter 4. I'll get them a goddamn blanket.

[YellowKing]

No I'm not, haha. Actually I was just reading about them on BGG before your reply and realized I f-ed up. I was forgetting to roll their casting die so I was just resisting a 6. Doh!

Now I'm debating whether I should just start over from scratch knowing what I know now (along with the initiative track mistake) or just suck it up and move on. I'm only leaning towards just sucking it up and moving ahead because we were still making rules mistakes in Gloomhaven MONTHS into our campaign.

[hepcat]

I don't think you should start over. The first group of encounters (the first four, I believe) is really intended for you to make mistakes and learn from them. It's going to ramp up even more I'm betting right after you "graduate".

p.s. error in my earlier reply: you don't add the symbol bonuses at the bottom of a combatant's card to casting (i.e. the water loas adding books to the the attack roll/healing with the stars), only during attacks. I play it correctly, but wrote it wrong. Sorry!

[baelthazar]

I haven't gotten this to the table yet, but I was pleasantly surprised by how clear and easy the rules seem to be. I was worried, when I heard people talking about watching play-through, rules videos, etc, but in reading the rules they seem pretty simple to follow. Sure, there is a lot of nuance and more terrain complexity, but coming off of Robinson Crusoe (so much minutia), Kingdom Death Monster (convoluted and no play aids), or Shadows of Brimstone (just a lot to remember), Middara seems refreshing. I am sure a lot of the complexity comes in the card interactions, which I look forward to delving into.

[hepcat]

Tags, terrain and timing are the things I struggle to remember/find when it comes to Middara. I think some printouts will help out immensely on those. However, I was looking for a help sheet with all the tags yesterday, but couldn't find one though.

There's also some fiddly aspects to the game. Spells aren't attacks, for example. Thus they don't get the symbol bonuses that attack actions get. I mentioned that earlier, but it bears repeating.

[YellowKing]

I know I could get stoned for saying this in some circles, but I do wish Middara had a character app to help keep track of your bonuses and things. So at a glance I could see Rook's Defense is not a 9, but actually a 10 because he's wearing Sunglasses that add +1 DEF and don't forget his 2 armor from his Cuirass. As it stands, you're having to look at several different cards just to make sure you have all your modifiers accounted for.

I'm actually considering making some custom token overlays that I could put over the default Defense, Armor, and Health values on the character card that would show the modified values.

Spoilers for Encounter 4 - Don't Read Until You've Finished It!

Spoiler:

Victory!

Things started off VERY poorly. The Cave Sickles rushed the party right out of the gate, knocking poor Nightingale (who was weak from her defeat in the previous encounter) unconscious. Remi bravely flew to face the Water Loa one-on-one, leaving Rook and Zeke to battle the three Cave Sickles.

Fortunately Remi, angered by Nightingale's sudden defeat, poured all of her energy into attacking the Water Loa. Her axe landed some vicious blows, leaving the Loa staggering from the vicious onslaught. As Rook and Zeke bravely took out two Cave Sickles, Remi managed to finish off the Water Loa single-handedly.

Still pumped with battle rage, Remi flew further into the cave. "Wait for us!," cried Zeke and Rook, as the remaining Cave Sickle they were dealing with refused to die. Remi wasn't listening, focused only on getting out of this gauntlet. But suddenly the glint of a treasure chest caught her eye! Snapped out of her anger by the sensation of greed, she grabbed the loot. Good thing too, as another Cave Sickle and Water Loa wandered about nearby, unaware of her presence.

Zeke finally dispatched his Cave Sickle and sloshed out of the water towards Remi. Rook followed suit, panting heavily as he tried to move his big body that long distance. Remi hovered impatiently, anxious to continue the fight. As the party regrouped, Remi again flew forth and angrily laid into the Water Loa. It was a tough battle but eventually the Loa and Cave Sickle lay dead. Victory seemed at hand.

Or did it? "Gevaudans!" Rook exclaimed as his eyes wandered south across the water. "And some kind of lever? Maybe they want us to pull it?" "Are you out of your mind?" Zeke snapped. "They don't know we're here. Let's just get the hell out while we can!" Remi agreed, and flew ahead to scout the winding passage to the north.

"Hey guys, I think this is the way ou-EEEEEK!" Remi had stumbled right into an Animate, and in her shock dislodged a rock that came crashing to the ground, awakening the beast. It advanced on her, slashing with its huge axe but only nicking her in the process. Zeke ran to help, determined not to let another party member fall. "Get away from her!" he yelled, and brought both short swords crashing down upon the Animate. Apparently he hit a weak spot, as the Animate let out a fantastic groan and staggered back, bleeding profusely. Zeke, seeking an opportunity, attacked again, driving the Animate to its knees. Remi smirked. "The bigger they are the harder they fall..." and with one fell swoop put the Animate out of its misery.

"Uhh guys?" Rook said, "We got company...." The party could hear the distant howling of the now-awake Gevaudans coming closer and closer. "RUN!"

The party took off running towards what appeared to be an exit as the howls got ever closer. Suddenly Remi veered away from the exit and headed south. "What the hell are you doing?" Zeke cried. "That's the wrong way!"

Remi grinned. "Sorry," she shouted. "I like the shiny stuff!" Remi grabbed a handful of loot out of a chest cleverly hidden behind some rocks, then made her way towards the exit. The exhausted party ran out, leaving two frustrated Gevaudans snapping at their heels. FIN

*** I was actually planning on just sucking up the Break Attacks and running past the Animate, but Zeke rolled a 14 on his first attack and a 14 on his second attack leaving the Animate with only 1 HP. Amazing!

[YellowKing]

I've hit a point where I can do some actual character customization, and man was that a tough decision.

Initially I checked out some builds (albeit for 1.0 version) on BGG, but then I felt guilty for abandoning the role-playing in favor of min/max statistical bullshit. Ditched the spreadsheets and just went with my gut, trying to generally cover the classic RPG archetypes while sticking thematically to the characters.

I'll throw this in spoilers just in case:

Spoiler:

Rook: My tank/berserker. Gave him two hand axes so that he can re-roll misses, along with Blade Works for yet another attack. The axes can also be thrown once per encounter, so they negate the need to buy throwing knives.

Remi: Remi is my archer, as I figured I need someone who can ping from range. With her flight and high movement, I figured it gives her the mobility to stay far out of harm's way but also catch up with the rest of the group when needed. Went with crossbow instead of longbow since I have an Arrow relic that adds range to it. For ability I gave her Mend. I'm not totally happy with that choice because it doesn't fit the class thematically, but I needed someone who could pop heals.

Nightingale: I initially wanted Nightingale to be my Mage, but I turned her into a Battle Cleric after seeing Courage Stifle. Courage Stifle is a powerful magic blast based off your armor value, so I loaded Nightingale up with Armor and a Morning Star/Shield combo. She can blast enemies at range, then close for strong melee. She's another character I'm still trying to figure out thematically, but for now she's very versatile.

Zeke: Zeke is my classic Rogue, with two Thief Daggers and Follow Through to be able to finish off opponents or ignore armor through flanking.

I have no idea how these builds will pan out further in the game, but I decided early on I was just going to roll with my decisions win or lose.

[hepcat]

I'm about to take on the encounter in your previous post, then I believe i can do some customization.

[Skinypupy]

I've hit a point where I can do some actual character customization, and man was that a tough decision.

I absolutely agonized over that first Equipment/Stat buy. I always worry about gimping a character early on in a way that will bite me in the ass later.

I wish this hadn't arrived the same week as Mass Effect. Commander Shepard is getting all my spare time at the moment.

[YellowKing]

I will say after playing a couple of encounters past the customization, you quickly learn what's useful and what isn't. I've already got some ideas on how to tweak my party. I guess part of the fun will be adapting as you go along.

[Malificent]

What up with the box being slightly too large for a Kallax shelf? Grrr. I'm starting to paint a friend's copy and discovered that irritating little fact.

[YellowKing]

Yeah it's going to wind up on my shelf of unwieldy behemoths along with Mechs vs Minions.

Still having a blast with this, the hype is real. I hit another spot where I could shop and train, and the decision making is delicious. I wound up tweaking two of my party to align closer to the RPG archetypes I was going for, but it meant taking a big hit gold-wise (at Mundane level, you're only getting 5GP back when selling items). Those types of sacrifices can be agonizing, but at the same time the thrill of watching your tweaks pay off in actual battle is extremely rewarding.

I did do one thing that has sped up my gameplay immensely, and that was making a summary notecard for each character. On it, I listed their HP, DEF, Armor, Movement and Attack Bonuses with all item modifiers taken into consideration. Underneath I have listed any abilities granted by items. Being able to glance down at all that info in one place vs having to look at 10 different cards and do math is very helpful, and since I don't do a lot of item swapping, those stats change very infrequently.

[Tao]

Just an FYI, in case it has not already been mentioned, for those who missed the KS like I did, the publisher is now selling wave 1 on their website. It's a little pricey but much less so than some of the other KS that have popped up recently.

[Skinypupy]

I did do one thing that has sped up my gameplay immensely, and that was making a summary notecard for each character. On it, I listed their HP, DEF, Armor, Movement and Attack Bonuses with all item modifiers taken into consideration. Underneath I have listed any abilities granted by items. Being able to glance down at all that info in one place vs having to look at 10 different cards and do math is very helpful, and since I don't do a lot of item swapping, those stats change very infrequently.

Can you post a pic of your cards? I’d love to see how you structured that...not that I need yet another card on the table for this one.

[Smoove_B]

Just an FYI, in case it has not already been mentioned, for those who missed the KS like I did, the publisher is now selling wave 1 on their website. It's a little pricey but much less so than some of the other KS that have popped up recently.

As a KS backer still waiting to be notified that my wave one materials have shipped...just know you're not getting the game any time soon. Not that it should dissuade you from ordering, but my understanding is they won't ship webstore orders until KS backers have been dealt with and FunAgain games is the worst. The. Worst.

[Montag]

A nearby friend is expecting to receive his copy today. Still no notification for me. My delivery address is likely the closest address to Funagain's warehouse at 6 miles, but still no joy.

[YellowKing]

Can you post a pic of your cards? I’d love to see how you structured that...not that I need yet another card on the table for this one.

Here you go. It's not pretty but it gets the job done. The stats on the left are total with all item modifiers so I don't have to think about it. Then on the right I can ensure I have taken into account all my exhaust abilities and per encounter abilities. The only thing missing is Disciplines, but it's easy enough to remember those for now. Every time I change an item I review this for accuracy, but as I pointed out earlier that's typically only happening in story scenes between multiple encounter sessions.

I wound up just putting the card on top of my actual character card since I know everyone's innate special ability at this point.

If I wasn't about to move and had my printer set up, I'd consider making a pretty version of this that you could laminate and maybe use dry erase on or something, but for now that's a job for someone that has more time than I do.

[hepcat]

A nearby friend is expecting to receive his copy today. Still no notification for me. My delivery address is likely the closest address to Funagain's warehouse at 6 miles, but still no joy.

Funagain is....

I'll let Smoove finish that.

In other news, encounter 4 still ongoing for me. It's a long one and unfortunately I need to finish it up tonight in time for a game day tomorrow. Need that table space for other stuff. But I'm sure Middara will come back out Sunday.

[Skinypupy]

Can you post a pic of your cards? I’d love to see how you structured that...not that I need yet another card on the table for this one.

Here you go. It's not pretty but it gets the job done. The stats on the left are total with all item modifiers so I don't have to think about it. Then on the right I can ensure I have taken into account all my exhaust abilities and per encounter abilities. The only thing missing is Disciplines, but it's easy enough to remember those for now. Every time I change an item I review this for accuracy, but as I pointed out earlier that's typically only happening in story scenes between multiple encounter sessions.

I wound up just putting the card on top of my actual character card since I know everyone's innate special ability at this point.

If I wasn't about to move and had my printer set up, I'd consider making a pretty version of this that you could laminate and maybe use dry erase on or something, but for now that's a job for someone that has more time than I do.

Thanks. Great idea, I'm gonna copy that format.

[YellowKing]

Just a note I just realized - the dice are supposed to have a P in them to show they're purple. I was in the middle of re-transcribing this one to a proper note card. I was previously using notebook paper, so this is the fancy upgraded version.

[Isgrimnur]

FunEventually.

[YellowKing]

I suffered my first party wipe in Middara. Remi got destroyed on the first turn of an encounter due to my own recklessness, leaving me with only three adventurers to get through the remainder. Even so, I still managed to come within one turn of making it out, but couldn't put together enough lucky dice rolls.

However, I love how defeat doesn't mean "start over, try again." Instead it means "this is what happened in the story, now let's see what happens next." As is pointed out in the rulebook, defeat is part of the game and may open encounters you wouldn't get to experience otherwise.

As far as difficulty goes, I know some criticize the game for being too easy, but I've never felt insufficiently challenged despite my high win rate. There are a couple of key takeaways I've noticed regarding the difficulty progression:

1. Many encounters give you a choice in how hard or easy you want to make it. You can rush the exit, but then you're missing out on loot and enemy drops. Because your character strength depends almost entirely on gear, you're severely handicapping yourself if you pass up too much treasure. It's kind of a cool risk/reward system that allows you to adjust your own difficulty on the fly in some ways.

2. On the other hand, loot tiers restrict what you can obtain. Because I've been very greedy so far, I've found that I've reached a point where I really can't obtain anything better than what I already have aside from consumables and the occasional upgrade. This leads me to believe the designers are fairly generous in making sure you can put together a decent party even with a worse win/loss ratio than what I've experienced. Obviously any gold I'm collecting now will eventually come in handy when I move to a higher tier, but it also means maybe I can currently afford to pass up a chest or two if I'm in a tight spot.

I can already tell if I should somehow hit a GAME OVER in the campaign, I would start over and try again. It's that good.

[YellowKing]

Just hit another milestone by unlocking Common Items.

The jump to the next Loot Tier is just as overwhelming as it is the first time you have to equip your characters. But this time you won't have nearly enough gold to get everything you want.

Just to make things a bit easier on myself, I essentially went with upgraded versions of the weapons I was used to. They're not exact copies, but close enough that I'm not having to re-learn an entirely new style of play. Whether that's good or bad I can't say, but considering I made it this far with only one defeat, I figure I must be doing OK with my current loadout.

And I'm definitely going to have to get to painting. I'm quickly outgrowing the figures I've finished and moving into bigger and badder beasties.

[YellowKing]

The player mats came in today, and look to be well worth the upgrade. While they take up a significant amount of space, just having everything cleanly organized and laid out for each character should make running them all much easier. I particularly like the SP token spots - keeping track of everyone's current and saved SP was a bit of a pain point, and the spots on the character card were too small to be of much use.

[Malificent]

Just hit another milestone by unlocking Common Items.

The jump to the next Loot Tier is just as overwhelming as it is the first time you have to equip your characters. But this time you won't have nearly enough gold to get everything you want.

Just to make things a bit easier on myself, I essentially went with upgraded versions of the weapons I was used to. They're not exact copies, but close enough that I'm not having to re-learn an entirely new style of play. Whether that's good or bad I can't say, but considering I made it this far with only one defeat, I figure I must be doing OK with my current loadout.

And I'm definitely going to have to get to painting. I'm quickly outgrowing the figures I've finished and moving into bigger and badder beasties.

We just finished the first story round and picking Discipline upgrades was a real thing. Decisions, decisions. Found a unique item in a side quest and it forced me to change my Zeke build because it was too good not to use.

This game has been a blast. We haven't wiped yet, but we've dropped someone to 1 HP the last few sessions. I feel the inevitable wipe is close at hand.

[hepcat]

Backstab is my new favorite ability. With armor piercing following close behind. Arming Remi with two such one handed weapons seems almost overpowered. Unfortunately, in both encounters yesterday that would have benefited from her attacks, she got knocked out almost immediately. I really need to keep her in reserve until I've set up a flanking situation first.

[Skinypupy]

I've got to get this back to the table. It's been on hold while I wrapped up Mass Effect, and now I'll be jumping into Dark Alliance. Maybe after that...

[YellowKing]

Unfortunately I had to make the decision to pack this up until after the move. It was getting too difficult to pack while working around a gigantic gaming table with a bunch of easily lost or knocked over pieces. When it gets to the new home, however, it will be a permanent setup with hopefully a lot more room.

[baelthazar]

I just got a chance to play the first mission and it was... easy? I know that I played it wrong a little (I missed the "moving through allies takes 2 movement points" rule) but damage output is super high (for both my group and the enemies) so I felt like getting an alpha strike pretty much was the way to go. I was confused a little about several small things:

• When do you have an enemy "jump" and when do they just not take a turn? With the bottle neck, the creatures often had no way to reach my group without going over dangerous terrain.

• Can you exhaust as many things as you want on your turn? And why wouldn't you, since they unexhaust at the beginning of the next turn (if the ability is applicable, anyway)?

I feel like I must have messed something else up, because there is a lot of tiny nuance rules, but overall it seemed pretty straightforward. I liked the synergy of the game and look forward to level up and getting new stuff.

[YellowKing]

These are my understandings from what I've read and how I've played:

When do you have an enemy "jump" and when do they just not take a turn? With the bottle neck, the creatures often had no way to reach my group without going over dangerous terrain.

Typically the game or the monster card will specify if creatures will avoid dangerous terrain. In those cases, they won't jump. By default, however, monsters will avoid dangerous terrain if they can, and jump if that's their only way to get in range for an attack. This is important because I've run across encounters where dangerous terrain and monster AI are specifically designed to work together to create the "puzzle."

Can you exhaust as many things as you want on your turn? And why wouldn't you, since they unexhaust at the beginning of the next turn (if the ability is applicable, anyway)?

Yes, you can exhaust as many things as you want on your turn. However, remember that things like Dodge and Counter can happen when it's not your turn (same reason you sometimes want to keep some SP in reserve). So if you exhaust, say, a sword for its power attacking a monster this turn you probably won't hit, you won't have it for the next round when you'll likely be able to counter that measly little Cave Sickle that's going to attack you.

The game is easy (and I believe designed to be that way) through the first chapter or so. Trust me, it gets harder. You're at the D&D equivalent of "fighting rats in the cellar."

[Malificent]

These are my understandings from what I've read and how I've played:

When do you have an enemy "jump" and when do they just not take a turn? With the bottle neck, the creatures often had no way to reach my group without going over dangerous terrain.

Typically the game or the monster card will specify if creatures will avoid dangerous terrain. In those cases, they won't jump. By default, however, monsters will avoid dangerous terrain if they can, and jump if that's their only way to get in range for an attack. This is important because I've run across encounters where dangerous terrain and monster AI are specifically designed to work together to create the "puzzle."

Can you exhaust as many things as you want on your turn? And why wouldn't you, since they unexhaust at the beginning of the next turn (if the ability is applicable, anyway)?

Yes, you can exhaust as many things as you want on your turn. However, remember that things like Dodge and Counter can happen when it's not your turn (same reason you sometimes want to keep some SP in reserve). So if you exhaust, say, a sword for its power attacking a monster this turn you probably won't hit, you won't have it for the next round when you'll likely be able to counter that measly little Cave Sickle that's going to attack you.

The game is easy (and I believe designed to be that way) through the first chapter or so. Trust me, it gets harder. You're at the D&D equivalent of "fighting rats in the cellar."

We just ran through the bounty and it was definitely challenging. We're getting to the point where we still have a chunk of Mundane loot that is now being outclassed by our enemies. And it is so expensive upgrading.

[hepcat]

I just set up an encounter Monday night that appears to be a gauntlet style slugfest. I've been mulling over my opening moves since then.

[Tao]

So three days to throw the first punch, you are really embracing the Japanese fighting anime vibe.

[hepcat]

So three days to throw the first punch, you are really embracing the Japanese fighting anime vibe.

I've got dragon balls, my friend.

[Tao]

So three days to throw the first punch, you are really embracing the Japanese fighting anime vibe.

I've got dragon balls, my friend.

Number, size and markings aside, how does the whole wish thing work?

[hepcat]

You wish for something, then you rub JeffV's head. If you get it, SCORE! If you don't, you have to buy him breakfast.

[Zarathud]

If you want something from hepcat, bring him an umbrella drink.

Rub him for fun.

[hepcat]

I should make you play this encounter with me. I could use you as a meat shield.

[Skinypupy]

Good grief, just doing the "Shop & Train" between missions is a full session unto itself. Poring over each purchase of items, accessories, and skills takes ages. By the time I finished that and set up the next side mission, I was done for the night...without rolling a single die.

I'm going with:
- Rook: Cleric w/Sanctus skills (combo tank/healer, basically)
- Zeke: Ninja w/Martial skills (dual wield, dodge/counter/mobility, melee AOE)
- Nightingale: Mage w/Cruor skills (hoping she gets progressively better, as she's currently a bit underwhelming...except for one entirely bad-ass "Bring the Shadows" skill)
- Remi: Archer w/Subterfuge skills (lucked out and got an awesome Unique bow in the last market. Should combine well with her abilities.)

A little worried that I made the party a bit too squishy, but we'll see how things go. I'm allowing myself the "one free respec" option that the manual mentions as a "Make the game easier" section.