Electric Vehicles [BEVs] [FinallyADedicatedThread]

[Zaxxon]

We've had electric vehicle discussions across a plethora of threads for several years now, but we've never had one overarching thread to contain random stuff about EVs in general. That ends... now!



Today's headlines that spurred me to start a general EV thread are:

• News that the EU is accelerating carbon-reduction goals again, which is yet another signal that combustion vehicles are on their way out, at least on the consumer side.
• BMW's shocking-but-not-shocking dropped ball that is the eight years since the i3 came out. It's now dead, and that leaves BMW with zero BEVs on the market again despite geezer having informed us of the i3's neatness years ago. (I also had a chance to test-drive the i3 several years back. While I wound up going with the Leaf instead, the i3 was a cool car.)
• US EV sales grew 95% in Jan-Apr 2021 vs 2020. That's partially due to pandemic rebound, but the overall car market grew only 36%.

As a bit of an index, here are some other EV-related threads:

• Chevy Bolt EV
• EVs (for kids)
• Ford F-150 Lightning
• Ford Mustang Mach-e
• Nissan Leaf
• Tesla Motors

Feel free to use this thread for any discussion that may not neatly fit into one of those other threads.

[El Guapo]

What does the "B" stand for?

[Jaymann]

In California they are asking people not to charge their vehicles because the grid can't keep up with demand. How can this not get worse over time?

[Zaxxon]

What does the "B" stand for?

Battery, to differentiate from companies that use weasel-words like 'electrified' vehicles (often meaning regular or plug-in hybrids). BEV = a 'real' EV, powered only by electricity.

[Zaxxon]

In California they are asking people not to charge their vehicles because the grid can't keep up with demand. How can this not get worse over time?

Who is asking that, and specifically what are they asking?

In general, the 'grid can't keep up' due to EVs is a straw man: the grid will advance to meet the need, and EVs can actually help smooth the demand curve through 'smart' charging (and soon / on some vehicles, smart dis-charging back to the grid). Several utilities, EVSE (charger) manufacturers, and vehicle companies are working on this. The 'dumb' method is through time-of-use rates, where the utility offers much cheaper rates during their lowest-demand periods. Since charging a vehicle will generally be the largest load a household puts out, EV owners generally follow the TOU schedule for 90+% of their charging.

The smarter method involves EVSEs or vehicles that talk to the utility. I'm in a pilot program with my utility, for example, that lets them actually change the scheduled time that either of my vehicles will charge on the fly to better utilize the utility's excess capacity.

[Lorini]

In California they are asking people not to charge their vehicles because the grid can't keep up with demand. How can this not get worse over time?

Link please? I have not seen that.

[Jaymann]

In California they are asking people not to charge their vehicles because the grid can't keep up with demand. How can this not get worse over time?

Link please? I have not seen that.

Here is a Snopes link with mixed results. I became aware when I got notified directly from Tesla.

[Zaxxon]

I'd be curious to see exactly what Tesla advised. Seems like this is a special case, though, caused by an extreme event rather than a general issue relating to EVs.

[LordMortis]

What does the "B" stand for?

Battery, to differentiate from companies that use weasel-words like 'electrified' vehicles (often meaning regular or plug-in hybrids). BEV = a 'real' EV, powered only by electricity.

That was my burning question. Why did it become BEV this year when we've been saying EV for so long? I have to say




Unless you want some ICE in you BEV.

Also the line for gas at lunch today make gave me some BEnVy.

[Zaxxon]

That was my burning question. Why did it become BEV this year when we've been saying EV for so long?

It's been BEV for many years. Way back before we got our PHEV (late 2015/early 2016) it was already around.

Also the line for gas at lunch today make gave me some BEnVy.

Wait till you have a BEV--line at the station or not, the experience is way better when you don't even think about the station or waste time going there.

[stessier]

That was my burning question. Why did it become BEV this year when we've been saying EV for so long?

It's been BEV for many years. Way back before we got our PHEV (late 2015/early 2016) it was already around.

Yeah, it's not new - but one would have had to do more than surface reading to come across it (or read articles where they weren't just comparing battery vehicles).

[LordMortis]

Wait till you have a BEV--line at the station or not, the experience is way better when you don't even think about the station or waste time going there.

I imagine it's way worse when you have to wait a quick charge station and you weren't able to plan it around a local consumption establishment. At the same time, I don't travel much at this phase of life, so needing a quick charge station would happen between 0 and 4 times in a year and those 4 times would be two trips. One charge to and one charge back.

[coopasonic]

What does the "B" stand for?

Battery, to differentiate from companies that use weasel-words like 'electrified' vehicles (often meaning regular or plug-in hybrids). BEV = a 'real' EV, powered only by electricity.

That was my burning question. Why did it become BEV this year when we've been saying EV for so long? I have to say

I'm pretty sure I never saw BEV until Zaxxon started using it here. EV is a much broader term covering hybrids like the original Prius, plug in hybrids like the Volt and pure battery vehicles like the Leaf/Teslas/Bolt/Mach-E/Taycan.

[Zaxxon]

Wait till you have a BEV--line at the station or not, the experience is way better when you don't even think about the station or waste time going there.

I imagine it's way worse when you have to wait a quick charge station and you weren't able to plan it around a local consumption establishment. At the same time, I don't travel much at this phase of life, so needing a quick charge station would happen between 0 and 4 times in a year and those 4 times would be two trips. One charge to and one charge back.

You just summarized the situation, yeah. You (the general you) save time every week in perpetuity with an EV, and it costs you time very rarely. The amount of time it costs you is currently lower (for the general you) than the time it saves you on an annual basis, and the situation will continue to become more lopsided for EVs over time as fast-charging gets faster and the world is saturated in more and more stations.

(Math - total charge time for a 1,000-mile trip is about 2-3 hours depending on EV make/model. Since most people take 0-1 road trips/year, that's about the total 'wait' time for an EV today annually for someone who can do their routine charging at home, where it takes about 5 seconds to plug in. Assuming an average weekly gasoline fill-up time of 5 minutes, that's 4+ hours for the gasser vs 2-3 for the EV, and it's likely that for a sizeable percentage of those two hours you'd be taking a restroom break, getting food, or some other road-trip miscellany which you'd also do in a gasoline vehicle.)

Obviously this is more accurate for some folks than others--if you're a realtor driving 1,000 miles/week, or someone in an apartment that has no charging available, or a road-tripper extraordinaire, or towing a trailer all the time, etc, the gasser is still going to have a sizeable advantage today.

[coopasonic]

Wait till you have a BEV--line at the station or not, the experience is way better when you don't even think about the station or waste time going there.

I imagine it's way worse when you have to wait a quick charge station and you weren't able to plan it around a local consumption establishment. At the same time, I don't travel much at this phase of life, so needing a quick charge station would happen between 0 and 4 times in a year and those 4 times would be two trips. One charge to and one charge back.

Yeah, fueling up at home each evening is so nice. One day I will road trip in my Tesla so I can more honestly answer all the questions I get on that. It's easily like 80% of the questions I get about the Tesla. I generally just quote stuff Zaxxon said to the best of my recollection. I've had my Model 3 for 3 years next month and have never used a supercharger. I think the only public charging I've used are at work when it was free and at the movie theater mostly for the front row parking spot.

[Zaxxon]

Yeah, fueling up at home each evening is so nice. One day I will road trip in my Tesla so I can more honestly answer all the questions I get on that. It's easily like 80% of the questions I get about the Tesla. I generally just quote stuff Zaxxon said to the best of my recollection. I've had my Model 3 for 3 years next month and have never used a supercharger. I think the only public charging I've used are at work when it was free and at the movie theater mostly for the front row parking spot.

What I hear is that you'd like to drive out to Colorado for another Ragnar.

[coopasonic]

BEVs are also paradoxically less awesome for speed freaks. High speeds seriously impact your range.

[LordMortis]

I'm pretty sure I never saw BEV until Zaxxon started using it here. EV is a much broader term covering hybrids like the original Prius, plug in hybrids like the Volt and pure battery vehicles like the Leaf/Teslas/Bolt/Mach-E/Taycan.

I started seeing (or noticing?) it at work sometime during the lost year.

[coopasonic]

Yeah, fueling up at home each evening is so nice. One day I will road trip in my Tesla so I can more honestly answer all the questions I get on that. It's easily like 80% of the questions I get about the Tesla. I generally just quote stuff Zaxxon said to the best of my recollection. I've had my Model 3 for 3 years next month and have never used a supercharger. I think the only public charging I've used are at work when it was free and at the movie theater mostly for the front row parking spot.

What I hear is that you'd like to drive out to Colorado for another Ragnar.

...and double the mileage on my car!? 35 months, 14k miles. Thanks pandemic.

[coopasonic]

I'm pretty sure I never saw BEV until Zaxxon started using it here. EV is a much broader term covering hybrids like the original Prius, plug in hybrids like the Volt and pure battery vehicles like the Leaf/Teslas/Bolt/Mach-E/Taycan.

I started seeing (or noticing?) it at work sometime during the lost year.

When Ford started making one perhaps.

[Zaxxon]

Yeah, fueling up at home each evening is so nice. One day I will road trip in my Tesla so I can more honestly answer all the questions I get on that. It's easily like 80% of the questions I get about the Tesla. I generally just quote stuff Zaxxon said to the best of my recollection. I've had my Model 3 for 3 years next month and have never used a supercharger. I think the only public charging I've used are at work when it was free and at the movie theater mostly for the front row parking spot.

What I hear is that you'd like to drive out to Colorado for another Ragnar.

...and double the mileage on my car!? 35 months, 14k miles. Thanks pandemic.

How far do you think Colorado is from TX?

[LordMortis]

someone in an apartment that has no charging available

That was crossing my mind when I was thinking about the roadmap to BEV dominance in a currently ICE world.

[LordMortis]

I'm pretty sure I never saw BEV until Zaxxon started using it here. EV is a much broader term covering hybrids like the original Prius, plug in hybrids like the Volt and pure battery vehicles like the Leaf/Teslas/Bolt/Mach-E/Taycan.

I started seeing (or noticing?) it at work sometime during the lost year.

When Ford started making one perhaps.

Nope. I want to say it was with following the roadmaps of RIVIAN (who is, in no small part working with Ford) and LMC. I work with everyone, TESLA inclusive.

[Zaxxon]

someone in an apartment that has no charging available

That was crossing my mind when I was thinking about the roadmap to BEV dominance in a currently ICE world.

It will be interesting to see when charging becomes an expected amenity at higher-end apartment complexes and hotels. We're already at a point where hotels are (finally) starting to list EV charging among their amenities. That's probably one of the ways we'll know EVs are over the hump.

[LordMortis]

It will be interesting to see when charging becomes an expected amenity at higher-end apartment complexes and hotels. We're already at a point where hotels are (finally) starting to list EV charging among their amenities. That's probably one of the ways we'll know EVs are over the hump.

I can see that happening imminently. The question is what triggers the leap from higher-end lodging supply to ubiquity. What gets the Motel 6 and more especially, the $700 or less a month apartment that already has limited parking and none of it covered or maintained to put in charging stations and how do they assign them? That's a place we need to reach to hit BEV ubiquity.

[Zaxxon]

Agreed. It will be interesting to see the specifics of the infrastructure package that eventually gets passed. There's been lots of talk of billions of dollars in charging infrastructure. Hopefully it's not all highway fast-charging, but also a significant amount of incentives for apartment/hotel/mall/etc level 2 stations.

[stessier]

Yeah, fueling up at home each evening is so nice. One day I will road trip in my Tesla so I can more honestly answer all the questions I get on that. It's easily like 80% of the questions I get about the Tesla. I generally just quote stuff Zaxxon said to the best of my recollection. I've had my Model 3 for 3 years next month and have never used a supercharger. I think the only public charging I've used are at work when it was free and at the movie theater mostly for the front row parking spot.

What I hear is that you'd like to drive out to Colorado for another Ragnar.

...and double the mileage on my car!? 35 months, 14k miles. Thanks pandemic.

My Bolt will turn 3 in September and I have 42k miles as of this morning. I've used DC charging twice - both times just to see if it worked. It did.

[Blackhawk]

So, how viable are old, used electrics? Are they fully functional 15 years down the line? Will prices be decreasing comparably to gas vehicles?

If not, there's a big speed bump ahead for poor people.

/edit - and to be clear, I'm not talking about the "Owner drove it for three years and wanted a newer model" used cars, where you get a $35,000 car for $12,000. I'm talking about the "It's had three owners, but new tires!" cars that cost $6,000 or less.

[coopasonic]

So, how viable are old, used electrics? Are they fully functional 15 years down the line? Will prices be decreasing comparably to gas vehicles?

If not, there's a big speed bump ahead for poor people.

Batteries will lose capacity over time (generally more by use and charging than time, but time is a factor) but can be replaced but are pretty expensive... every year (except maybe this one) batteries get cheaper.

[LordMortis]

overall car market grew only 36%.

I am the car market grew at all. If you drive around any lot around here there are no cars in the side lots, no cars in the back lot, and the cars pulled up at the curb are often parked parallel to fill the front row with the inventory they have.

Cars still aren't there. More people are getting cars fixed for more expensive/effort intensive repairs than since I was a kid. Anecdotally, I am informed that cars are often going above sticker price and employee pricing plans are not being honored.

[El Guapo]

I looked into EVs a few years ago when we bought our current car, I want to say in 2018. Ultimately went with a RAV4 hybrid, because at that point the Bolt was the only affordable EV, and it was too small, plus even if it was rare, I dreaded a mid-road trip wait with two small-ish children.

I think there's a decent chance that we get an EV for our next car, though, whenever that winds up being.

[Zaxxon]

So, how viable are old, used electrics? Are they fully functional 15 years down the line? Will prices be decreasing comparably to gas vehicles?

If not, there's a big speed bump ahead for poor people.

The Nissan Leaf has been one of the used EV poster children since it's one of the oldest BEVs. Just looking at my local Craigslist, a 2012 is up for $5900, and a 2017 for $11k. I've heard the $8k-$10k range is a sweet spot.

We will need to see battery prices continue to drop before used EVs are priced comparable to gas vehicles. The 'fully functional' part is also still up in the air. They'll run, but the level of range loss thus far varies widely between the Nissans and Teslas of the world, with all the new-to-the-BEV-world manufacturers' track records still up in the air.

[Zaxxon]

overall car market grew only 36%.

I am the car market grew at all.

Remember that this is Jan-April, so it's comparing against a period that included the first 6 weeks of COVID lockdown. It'd be hard not to grow relative to that period.

I think there's a decent chance that we get an EV for our next car, though, whenever that winds up being.

I'm confident that the OOFE will snag you.

[LordMortis]

I'm confident that the OOFE will snag you.

Only if OO will come over, fix my shoddy electric, bring my house up to code, and install the charger in my garage. Then it's on the table. Until then, my next likely car is still the most affordable ICE car with room enough for a fat, pained, 6'2" man to reasonably fit in. Now the car after the next car, which will likely be my last, should be a BEV.

[Blackhawk]

It's going to get really ugly for poor people when the transition comes, then.

It's already really bad, as the older, affordable used cars today were the ones produced during the recession. In other words, there aren't any. Five years ago when I got my car, I pulled ever dime I had, every string, and every favor, and managed a little over $4k. Most of the lots didn't have a single car in the that range. I ended up with the car that's been falling apart because it was one of only two or three that I could find under $6k. Now that number is closer to $10k, and poor people are finding themselves stranded.

[Zaxxon]

I'm confident that the OOFE will snag you.

Only if OO will come over, fix my shoddy electric, bring my house up to code, and install the charger in my garage. Then it's on the table. Until then, my next likely car is still the most affordable ICE car with room enough for a fat, pained, 6'2" man to reasonably fit in. Now the car after the next car, which will likely be my last, should be a BEV.

What's your daily commute? For my Mom I just rewired her to a 20A 120V outlet in her garage myself. Charges at about 2 kW and is plenty for her meager usage (adds 70-100 miles/night). Cost: $12, and required very little in her case. Not sure what your home wiring situation is, but it's not always the case that you need a panel capable of supporting an 11 kW charging station.

It's going to get really ugly for poor people when the transition comes, then.

This is why I hope the infrastructure bill isn't just an extension of the new-car tax credit and highway charging incentives. Those are good, as well, but we really need more incentives targeting charging for those without a home garage they can rewire, for those not buying a new car (eg cash for clunkers), etc. That area has historically not gotten nearly the attention. Now that we're at a point where the new car sales and highway infrastructure will likely take care of themselves, I'd like to see the focus shift.

Not that I'm opposed to further incentives for new BEVs, mind you. But that's not, IMO, the biggest area of need.

[LordMortis]

It's going to get really ugly for poor people when the transition comes, then.

That's what I'm saying. Not just for the poors but for the lower middle class and the up and coming youngin' struggling to start their path in life.

What's your daily commute?

shy of 70 miles round trip, but often with a lot congested idle time. Also if I errand run that could go to 100 or more more than several times a month.

For my Mom I just rewired her to a 20A 120V outlet in her garage myself.

No skills here and more importantly my electric is flakey and 70+ years old, the garage is made worse by a previous owner DIY wiring on 3 way switch that a stupid woodchuck managed to get at, lord knows how.

BEVs are in the back of my mind but overhauling my home electric has to come as a pre-requisite and I need a pro for that a pro would need to bring the house out of 1950's code and into 2020's code. That's something today me can't get to but future me will have to work on.

[Zaxxon]

Yep, sounds like a process, for sure.

FWIW, congested idle time raises efficiency in EVs vs highway driving.

[LawBeefaroni]

The Mach-E travels 840 miles with just two charging stops totaling about 45 minutes.

According to a recent report by Autocar, the Mustang Mach-E electric crossover – Ford's competition with the highly efficient Tesla Model Y and Model 3 – has just set a new Guinness World Record for EV efficiency.

The record claims that the all-electric crossover averaged an impressive 6.54 miles per kilowatt-hour during an 840-mile road trip. The trip took the EV from John o’ Groats to Land’s End, which is basically the entire length of the island of Great Britain, though the Mach-E's particular route was longer than the most direct route.

The fine print:

The trip started on July 3 and took 27 hours to complete. The team drove an average speed of about 31 mph, so this was more of a hypermiling test than a traditional efficiency test. The team only stopped twice to charge, and the total en-route charging time added up to just 45 minutes, not including the time it took to initially charge the car for the trip.

That's an average of 31 MPH.

This record is about demonstrating that electric cars are now viable for everyone. Not just for short urban trips to work or the shops or as a second car, but for real-world use on long cross-country journeys. We’ve proved that, with this car, the tipping point has been reached.

What's real world about 27 hours at 31 MPH?

[Isgrimnur]

What's real world about 27 hours at 31 MPH?

Rush hour on the street formerly known as Lake Shore Drive?