Octopus Overlords

Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun that killed a crew member.

Wow, this is terrible. I'm not sure how this happens on a set. Did the safety measures fail?

Edit - I changed the title. I didn't feel good about the way it seemed to place blame on Baldwin.

McNutt wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:32 am Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun that killed a crew member.

Wow, this is terrible. I'm not sure how this happens on a set. Did the safety measures fail?

Whoever is in charge of the prop guns fucked up. There is no way that should happen if procedures are followed.

The other option is that Baldwin took the gun and used in a way it wasn't meant to be used or he wasn't supposed to handle it.

The fact that two people were apparently shot really makes me wonder about the details.

Especially since they were the director and DoP.

I can see accidentally shooting an actor during a scene but there's no reason why one would be pointing a gun at the director and DP.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:42 amThe other option is that Baldwin took the gun and used in a way it wasn't meant to be used or he wasn't supposed to handle it.

This is my line of thought as it's one of the only things that makes sense.

Unless he was firing at the camera. James Bond does that all the time.

Also, two people could have been hit by the same projectile. Just yesterday two cops were shot (by another cop) in the Chicago suburbs when one of them accidentally fired his gun.

That's pretty much the only other possibility.

Maybe a shotgun?

Brian wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:56 am That's pretty much the only other possibility.

There's also the possibility of trip-and-fall or even the director grabbing Baldwin's hand to show him something about stance, etc.

But it's Alec Baldwin, so it's definitely possible to believe that sloppy arrogance was involved.

It was one shot, went through the DP and then hit the director according to what I read.

I do not understand how live ammo makes it on to the set of a film in any capacity.

Not only that, the article I read was talking about how even the prop guns are never pointed directly at another person - that's all camera angles and editing tricks when it hits the screen.

Doesn't have to be live ammo. On the Crow set it was dummy bullet jammed in the barrel. That said if it went through one person and hit another it's likely a live round. As Smoove will likely know we had an incident in the area in 2006 at Wild West City where they reenact gun fights. In that case it 100% WAS live ammo and they guy shot ended up living, but is in a wheelchair. I actually just looked it up and there's a lot of rumors that it was actually intentional, but never proven.

Smoove_B wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:03 am I do not understand how live ammo makes it on to the set of a film in any capacity.

This.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:42 am

McNutt wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 9:32 am Alec Baldwin fired a prop gun that killed a crew member.

Wow, this is terrible. I'm not sure how this happens on a set. Did the safety measures fail?

Whoever is in charge of the prop guns fucked up. There is no way that should happen if procedures are followed.

The other option is that Baldwin took the gun and used in a way it wasn't meant to be used or he wasn't supposed to handle it.

I recall that Jon-Erik Hexum, one of the stars of the old 80's time travel show Voyagers, accidentally killed himself with a blank. Apparently he put the gun to his head and pulled the trigger as a joke.

When I was in the army we were having a training exercise that was an ambush. We were using blanks. One guy surprised a bunch of ambushers and got shot is the face by one of them from just a few feet away. His face was sore and blistered for weeks afterwards.

Never underestimate the pressure of a cartridge going off. I had a revolver go off once with my hand wrapped around the front of the cylinder. I couldn't feel two of my fingers for several days, and that's just the cylinder, which is relatively well sealed.

A round of ammunition isn't a magic flying metal projector, it's a grenade with only one piece of shrapnel.

I recall that Jon-Erik Hexum, one of the stars of the old 80's time travel show Voyagers, accidentally killed himself with a blank. Apparently he put the gun to his head and pulled the trigger as a joke.

I still remember that to this day and think of it anytime theres a gun accident on set. I loved Voyagers.

Daehawk wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:20 am

I recall that Jon-Erik Hexum, one of the stars of the old 80's time travel show Voyagers, accidentally killed himself with a blank. Apparently he put the gun to his head and pulled the trigger as a joke.

I still remember that to this day and think of it anytime theres a gun accident on set. I loved Voyagers.

I was in sixth grade when that happened, it one of the girls in my class was hit really, really hard by it - apparently she was a huge fan. Apparently the teacher suggested that she write up a paper about it and present it to the class as a way to address her own feelings about the event*. That was how I learned it had happened.

*Unusual projects like that weren't uncommon, and were surprisingly effective. Another pair of girls did a similar project after they had an encounter with a flasher. But it was the 'advanced placement' class for the region. Being that sort of class, of course, it was smaller, and the kids were closer. I'm still in touch with a number of them to this day, and could name 3/4 of them, while I couldn't name a single kid from any of my other elementary school classes, save for two or three friends. The teacher's approach wouldn't have worked in any other situation.

Octavious wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 10:09 am As Smoove will likely know we had an incident in the area in 2006 at Wild West City where they reenact gun fights. In that case it 100% WAS live ammo and they guy shot ended up living, but is in a wheelchair. I actually just looked it up and there's a lot of rumors that it was actually intentional, but never proven.

Yeah, as soon as I saw this headline, the local incident is the first thing I'd thought of, which is crazy as prior I'd always think of Brandon Lee.

A few hours is apparently the appropriate time to start making dumb jokes about this.

https://twitter.com/EliLake/status/1451428300702748676

A reminder of just how dangerous just the expelled gasses from a firearm are: a revolver can blow your finger apart just from the side-expelled discharge. You really only need the first 5 seconds of the video to get it.

malchior wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:36 am A few hours is apparently the appropriate time to start making dumb jokes about this.

https://twitter.com/EliLake/status/1451428300702748676

That's really in bad taste.

More info:

Now, new updates to the incident include the fact that a live bullet had somehow been inside the prop gun discharged by Baldwin. As reported by IndieWire, IATSE Local 44, which covers prop masters, sent out an email to its members announcing that the prop gun used in the scene being filmed contained a “live round.” Additionally, the union noted that the production’s prop master was not a member of Local 44.

That's really unfortunate. A lot of folks are going to have some really tough days. I wonder if it'll be linked to or IATSE strike adjacent.

So, we are still waiting to hear any justification for there being a live round in the gun, is that right?
I mean, that seems criminal to me. Sneaking a live round into the scene ?

Unagi wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:57 am So, we are still waiting to hear any justification for there being a live round in the gun, is that right?
I mean, that seems criminal to me. Sneaking a live round into the scene ?

It seems more likely it'd be criminal *negligence* -- on the prop master's part -- but the world is a strange place.

Baldwin will never be the same after this. I can't even imagine the amount of guilt he's going to carry around for the rest of his life.

Smoove_B wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:44 am More info:

Now, new updates to the incident include the fact that a live bullet had somehow been inside the prop gun discharged by Baldwin. As reported by IndieWire, IATSE Local 44, which covers prop masters, sent out an email to its members announcing that the prop gun used in the scene being filmed contained a “live round.” Additionally, the union noted that the production’s prop master was not a member of Local 44.

Reminds me of Brandon Lee.

Can you imagine being the one who pulled the trigger? Do you think you could ever act in any production that requires you to shoot a gun again? Jesus.

Unagi wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:57 am So, we are still waiting to hear any justification for there being a live round in the gun, is that right?
I mean, that seems criminal to me. Sneaking a live round into the scene ?

Probably had to go to a lot of effort to do so, too. The movie is set in the 1880s so it was either a revolver or rifle.

malchior wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:59 am

Unagi wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:57 am So, we are still waiting to hear any justification for there being a live round in the gun, is that right?
I mean, that seems criminal to me. Sneaking a live round into the scene ?

It seems more likely it'd be criminal *negligence* -- on the prop master's part -- but the world is a strange place.

But I can't honestly understand why there would ever be a reason to have a live round in a 'prop' (functional) gun at all... That's like replacing a fake prop syringe with a real one, with real poison in it... That would be acting in a way that one knew would have grave consequences. I mean, how the hell can they pretend to be taking any safety precautions if they even have a real gun... let alone the round... quite frankly. I mean how hard could it be for the prop world to have guns that are incapable of firing a projectile?

bleh, such a preventable accident.

This all brings me back to my original question - how did live ammo end up on the set and inside a prop gun?

I've never worked as a prop master, so I'm just guessing here, but I'd think there are two scenarios for acquiring blanks.

First, you're purchasing them from a licensed/certified/approved dealer that provides documentation that all rounds are blanks and that there would be some visible indication on the rounds that they are. I'd still expect the prop master to be inspecting them prior to use and signing off on a verification that they were indeed blanks.

The second is that the prop master is certified/licensed in some way to create their own blanks for use on the set. Here again, they'd be documenting they did and that prior to the shoot they're certifying blank rounds were provided to the set.

Assuming my guess is correct, I just don't understand how it happened other than negligence.

How would you certify that a round is a blank, other than shooting it?

Or, someone looking to set up Alec Baldwin.
Damnit, there I go again.

stimpy wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:27 pm How would you certify that a round is a blank, other than shooting it?

If you unwrap an unopened new green box of Remington's and there is a live round then there is a big problem somewhere.

Unagi wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:23 pm

malchior wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:59 am

Unagi wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:57 am So, we are still waiting to hear any justification for there being a live round in the gun, is that right?
I mean, that seems criminal to me. Sneaking a live round into the scene ?

It seems more likely it'd be criminal *negligence* -- on the prop master's part -- but the world is a strange place.

But I can't honestly understand why there would ever be a reason to have a live round in a 'prop' (functional) gun at all... That's like replacing a fake prop syringe with a real one, with real poison in it... That would be acting in a way that one knew would have grave consequences. I mean, how the hell can they pretend to be taking any safety precautions if they even have a real gun... let alone the round... quite frankly. I mean how hard could it be for the prop world to have guns that are incapable of firing a projectile?

bleh, such a preventable accident.

There are prop guns that cannot fire a projectile. I'm guessing it is dictated the nature of the shot (film shot) whether they use them or not. Possibly the budget of the production too?


There should never be a live round on set and prop guns should be segregated and never used to fire live rounds. The prop master should inspect the prop gun every time it changes hands or leaves their sight. Any time a scene calls for a trigger pull, the prop master should check the load. And the 3 rules of gun safety should be observed at all times except when a scene calls for otherwise (and prop master has done the aforementioned load check).


There are definitely procedures in place, this is a case of someone fucking up. Or as mentioned upthread, possibly intentionally causing this.

stimpy wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:27 pm How would you certify that a round is a blank, other than shooting it?

By looking at it. Lack of a bullet is a pretty good indicator.

Unagi wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:23 pmI mean how hard could it be for the prop world to have guns that are incapable of firing a projectile?

It is pretty much mechanically impossible and probably introduces other safety risks. The only 100% safe way to do it if fully simulate firing a firearm.

bleh, such a preventable accident.

Somewhere someone made a mistake. That's about all we know.

LawBeefaroni wrote: Fri Oct 22, 2021 12:31 pmThere are prop guns that cannot fire a projectile. I'm guessing it is dictated the nature of the shot (film shot) whether they use them or not. Possibly the budget of the production too?

I assume you mean no blanks involved, right?