Octopus Overlords

Kraken wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 12:02 am The main sticking point is automation. US ports are the least efficient in the developed world and should not be treated as make-work projects. I respect the value of human labor but my sympathies are with management on that point. But I am glad they punted the showdown until after the election.

Well, if there is one thing the dockers have demonstrated, it's that automated gates don't strike.

I imagine in an industry that's so ripe for automation, the workers feel they have a very short window to demand protection against automation.

Kraken wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 12:02 am The main sticking point is automation. US ports are the least efficient in the developed world and should not be treated as make-work projects. I respect the value of human labor but my sympathies are with management on that point. But I am glad they punted the showdown until after the election.

Demanding a 62% increase in pay over 6 years while simultaneously demanding a stagnation in productivity? US ports will continue to lag ROW and we'll all pay for it. But a union wins!

Kraken wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 12:02 am The main sticking point is automation. US ports are the least efficient in the developed world and should not be treated as make-work projects. I respect the value of human labor but my sympathies are with management on that point. But I am glad they punted the showdown until after the election.

At some point the guy shoveling coal into the steam locomotive had to lose his job. Not great news for his family, but that is how progress works. If only there had been a coal shovelers union! (and in general, I'm a pro-union guy)

I like unions when they're for the workers. When unions are used for political things I no longer like unions.

Formix wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 4:57 am

Kraken wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 12:02 am The main sticking point is automation. US ports are the least efficient in the developed world and should not be treated as make-work projects. I respect the value of human labor but my sympathies are with management on that point. But I am glad they punted the showdown until after the election.

At some point the guy shoveling coal into the steam locomotive had to lose his job. Not great news for his family, but that is how progress works. If only there had been a coal shovelers union! (and in general, I'm a pro-union guy)

+1. Collective bargaining should protect workers against abuse from employers not from obsolescence. OTOH, seeing your job moving toward antiquity is a great reason to go looking for another job.

Daehawk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 5:11 am I like unions when they're for the workers. When unions are used for political things I no longer like unions.

What about when what the workers need requires political things?

Daehawk wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 5:11 am I like unions when they're for the workers. When unions are used for political things I no longer like unions.

Corporations call them Political Action Committees. They're banding together to lobby for their interests. Shouldn't the employees be able to do the same?

LordMortis wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 6:50 am

Formix wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 4:57 am

Kraken wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 12:02 am The main sticking point is automation. US ports are the least efficient in the developed world and should not be treated as make-work projects. I respect the value of human labor but my sympathies are with management on that point. But I am glad they punted the showdown until after the election.

At some point the guy shoveling coal into the steam locomotive had to lose his job. Not great news for his family, but that is how progress works. If only there had been a coal shovelers union! (and in general, I'm a pro-union guy)

+1. Collective bargaining should protect workers against abuse from employers not from obsolescence. OTOH, seeing your job moving toward antiquity is a great reason to go looking for another job.

It's a great reason for the government and employers to prepare the workforce for the loss of those jobs through industry diversification. If you're a poor worker in a company town, packing up the family and heading for the city isn't always an option.

I can live with this. Continuing education access in many forms is something I can support. Stuff needs to get done and automation should just allow for more stuff getting done in the pursuit of a paycheck.

LordMortis wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 11:46 am I can live with this. Continuing education access in many forms is something I can support. Stuff needs to get done and automation should just allow for more stuff getting done in the pursuit of a paycheck.

There is a significant problem with tech. It exists to eliminate jobs. That's how you ended up being horribly overworked.

Default wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 9:03 pm

LordMortis wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 11:46 am I can live with this. Continuing education access in many forms is something I can support. Stuff needs to get done and automation should just allow for more stuff getting done in the pursuit of a paycheck.

There is a significant problem with tech. It exists to eliminate jobs. That's how you ended up being horribly overworked.

That's how I ended up getting overworked anyway.

Default wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 9:03 pm

LordMortis wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 11:46 am I can live with this. Continuing education access in many forms is something I can support. Stuff needs to get done and automation should just allow for more stuff getting done in the pursuit of a paycheck.

There is a significant problem with tech. It exists to eliminate jobs. That's how you ended up being horribly overworked.

My job, and I daresay those of almost everyone here, derives from technologies that weren't even imagined when I was a schoolboy. It eliminates some jobs and it creates others, or it reduces drudgery. When I learned copy editing, content was typewritten on rolls of continuous low-grade copy paper. I made my edits with a blue grease pencil and I cut and pasted with scissors and a glue pot. Stories that were ready for publication got rolled up, rubber banded, and physically carried to a composing department where they were typeset and laid out on light tables using razor blades and paste. When all the pages were physically assembled and proofread, I drove a heavy wooden box of master pages to the printer.

Today I edit on an electronic device in the comfort of my home and stories are published at the touch of a button. Jobs were eliminated, and good riddance.

LordMortis wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 6:50 am

Formix wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 4:57 am

Kraken wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2024 12:02 am The main sticking point is automation. US ports are the least efficient in the developed world and should not be treated as make-work projects. I respect the value of human labor but my sympathies are with management on that point. But I am glad they punted the showdown until after the election.

At some point the guy shoveling coal into the steam locomotive had to lose his job. Not great news for his family, but that is how progress works. If only there had been a coal shovelers union! (and in general, I'm a pro-union guy)

+1. Collective bargaining should protect workers against abuse from employers not from obsolescence. OTOH, seeing your job moving toward antiquity is a great reason to go looking for another job.

The issue is retraining takes time and money. And employers and politicians talk a good game but never help workers. And as technology advances the level of training needed increases exponentially.

When the horse and carriage went out with the motor car the change happened fast - literally within five to ten years horses were gone equestrian workers could find a new job easily in a factory. Now it take years to retrain a worker so anyone 30-40 and above is tossed out with severance.

“The issue is retraining takes time and money. And employers and politicians talk a good game but never help workers.”

This.

Saw a newish lawn sign in front of the local UAW hall on my walk today. "Harris 2024 Defeat Trump" That's the most direct I've seen a democratic lawn sign ever. I also a several new "Make xxxx Great Again" advertisements and I made mental notes of more things I'll never patronize.

Kraken wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2024 2:46 am

Default wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 9:03 pm

LordMortis wrote: ↑Sat Oct 05, 2024 11:46 am I can live with this. Continuing education access in many forms is something I can support. Stuff needs to get done and automation should just allow for more stuff getting done in the pursuit of a paycheck.

There is a significant problem with tech. It exists to eliminate jobs. That's how you ended up being horribly overworked.

My job, and I daresay those of almost everyone here, derives from technologies that weren't even imagined when I was a schoolboy. It eliminates some jobs and it creates others, or it reduces drudgery. When I learned copy editing, content was typewritten on rolls of continuous low-grade copy paper. I made my edits with a blue grease pencil and I cut and pasted with scissors and a glue pot. Stories that were ready for publication got rolled up, rubber banded, and physically carried to a composing department where they were typeset and laid out on light tables using razor blades and paste. When all the pages were physically assembled and proofread, I drove a heavy wooden box of master pages to the printer.

Today I edit on an electronic device in the comfort of my home and stories are published at the touch of a button. Jobs were eliminated, and good riddance.

While this is true, and I have no wish to go back to the old days, based on the articles I see on the internet I'd say many editors aren't worthy of the title and just rely on spellcheck.

I've seen signs going up recently that are the epitome of "catering to morons." They say stuff like TRUMP - LOW TAXES/HARRIS - HIGH TAXES and TRUMP - SAFETY/HARRIS - CRIME.

I guess if your target audience is complete idiots it's a good strategy.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2024 12:29 pm
I guess if your target audience is complete idiots it's a good strategy.

That is indeed the target audience.

One of the best anti-trump signs I've seen says "I'm a veteran. Not a sucker or a loser." It's displayed between two trump houses, and the last time I walked past I noticed it had been broken in half.

This bus has been showing up at Trump and Vance rallies-

https://www.threads.net/@votevets/post/DAt2MQjgKqX

Alefroth wrote: ↑Sun Oct 06, 2024 5:45 pm This bus has been showing up at Trump and Vance rallies-

https://www.threads.net/@votevets/post/DAt2MQjgKqX

Spot on!

Some struggles:

It's head-bangingly frustrating to think a large segment of the blue collar working class think the guy on their side is the multi-millionaire born into money that never worked a day of manual labor in his life.

…with a long history of stiffing people working for him.

At least Trump isn’t proposing or demanding Biden and Harris nuke the hurricane…

YellowKing wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 9:37 pm It's head-bangingly frustrating to think a large segment of the blue collar working class think the guy on their side is the multi-millionaire born into money that never worked a day of manual labor in his life.

It was the same in the Uk and Australia.

They’d vote for Boris Johnson who was as elite as they come in the UK. And in Australia they voted for a far right guy called John Howard who had a massive following from the working classes. They called them Howard’s battlers.

There is a trait common in poorer white communities from South America to Europe to Australia to here that as long as they can look down on someone they’ll vote for whomever promises they can do that.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 9:37 pm It's head-bangingly frustrating to think a large segment of the blue collar working class think the guy on their side is the multi-millionaire born into money that never worked a day of manual labor in his life.

Members of the blue collar working class tend to be less educated, and there's a strong correlation between education and voting preferences, at least until the educated have a certain amount of money.

It would be interesting to see what kind of a curve you got if you graphed voting habits of people with 'education' on one axis, and 'wealth' on the other.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 9:37 pm It's head-bangingly frustrating to think a large segment of the blue collar working class think the guy on their side is the multi-millionaire born into money that never worked a day of manual labor in his life.

I get that, but I recommend listening to The Daily episode from earlier this week: How NAFTA Broke American Politics.

The thrust is, as the democrats leaned into globalization and away from the blue collar working class, they opened a massive vacuum for a populist like Trump to step into. The argument is that after Clinton, the Democratic Party became much less the party of the working class and much, much more the party of the college educated professional.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 10:38 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 9:37 pm It's head-bangingly frustrating to think a large segment of the blue collar working class think the guy on their side is the multi-millionaire born into money that never worked a day of manual labor in his life.

Members of the blue collar working class tend to be less educated, and there's a strong correlation between education and voting preferences, at least until the educated have a certain amount of money.

It would be interesting to see what kind of a curve you got if you graphed voting habits of people with 'education' on one axis, and 'wealth' on the other.

See my post above. That was not always the case, at least, not in the way I think you are thinking. It used to be that lower education, blue collar workers were overwhelmingly democrats, and college educated professionals tended to identify with the business-friendly GOP.

The argument above is that all changed with NAFTA, or, more accurately, with the impacts of NAFTA on the working class.

Big swing to Harris among suburban voters:

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/harris ... 024-10-10/

I still cannot fully understand how so many people support Trump - at all.

He’s so genuinely repulsive and so obviously self absorbed, I just don’t understand why some other organic brain pours any value into him. I mean, it honestly must be some fascinating psychological condition to be attracted to that instead of being utterly repulsed by it.

Scare 'em by telling 'em minorities and immigrants want to kill 'em, and then promise you'll save 'em. It's worked for every dictator that ever lived.

Unagi wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:46 am I still cannot fully understand how so many people support Trump - at all.

He’s so genuinely repulsive and so obviously self absorbed, I just don’t understand why some other organic brain pours any value into him. I mean, it honestly must be some fascinating psychological condition to be attracted to that instead of being utterly repulsed by it.

I saw a theory floated that for some people, they like the attention (good or bad) they receive when openly voicing or demonstrating that they support him. Think about the people that decorate their houses (outside), cover their car (or pickup) in flags, wear hats and t-shirts with images, etc...

They want people to notice them. They like the attention from walking around or being in public and getting a reaction. Interestingly, they might not strongly agree with everything (or anything) Trump is spewing, but they know just by openly identifying as a supporter it gives them the attention they crave; it has become part of their identity.

This is why his loss is potentially catastrophic for them - it might mean (to them) that they're going to slip back into obscurity and no longer get public attention. Their ego will be shattered.

I can totally believe it.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:54 am

Unagi wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:46 am I still cannot fully understand how so many people support Trump - at all.

He’s so genuinely repulsive and so obviously self absorbed, I just don’t understand why some other organic brain pours any value into him. I mean, it honestly must be some fascinating psychological condition to be attracted to that instead of being utterly repulsed by it.

I saw a theory floated that for some people, they like the attention (good or bad) they receive when openly voicing or demonstrating that they support him. Think about the people that decorate their houses (outside), cover their car (or pickup) in flags, wear hats and t-shirts with images, etc...

They want people to notice them. They like the attention from walking around or being in public and getting a reaction. Interestingly, they might not strongly agree with everything (or anything) Trump is spewing, but they know just by openly identifying as a supporter it gives them the attention they crave; it has become part of their identity.

This is why his loss is potentially catastrophic for them - it might mean (to them) that they're going to slip back into obscurity and no longer get public attention. Their ego will be shattered.

I can totally believe it.

I have seen two different cars this week with Trump wraps. One was on the hood and it was the raised fist shooting picture and the other was a Ram truck with various Trump propaganda. Neither one were nice vehicles and I imagine they spent more on the wraps than the vehicles were actually worth.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 9:54 am I can totally believe it.

Oh I can totally see that in a lot of them, for sure. Absolutely.

And then there are others that almost secretly or a tiny bit shamefully support him. Is that just someone caught up in a culture they can't fathom a way out of but they can't also see being anything else? But they, again and again, refuse to take any other path. (Perhaps these people secretly will not vote for Trump, but know they will not have a ride home if they say that out loud)

To me, if someone is a reasonably decent person -- it's actually impossible to support this man -- and yet I'm convinced some reasonably decent people still do. It's complete delusion or detachment to reality or epic denial/head in the sand.

And I struggle with the whole idea that this is all subjective. That the other side sees my 'representatives' the same way - and this is just a sports rivalry. That's just not the case here with the direction the GOP/Trump are going.
Knowing the depth and level of my disdain for G.W.Bush - I'm very aware of the difference I see in Trump. This isn't anything like "I cannot believe they think this man is a good President", this is more like "Oh My Fucking Good, do you not hear what that man just fucking said he will do if he is elected? Do you not understand? Do you not see who he is? He's the neon-light/tornado-siren version of a con-man.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 9:37 pm It's head-bangingly frustrating to think a large segment of the blue collar working class think the guy on their side is the multi-millionaire born into money that never worked a day of manual labor in his life.

I didn't want to say it because we criticize the sources a little too often, even if it's deserved most of the time, but the WSJ isn't what it used to be in terms of journalistic integrity.

The article could be true. Or not. I'm not giving the WSJ my time, so I'm going to ignore the headline. As a "both sides", Meidastouch shows up in my feed way too often, and while I don't think they mess with the facts, it's the constant opinionating that distracts and puts me off. Drumpf alienates all American allies forever during dinner party gaff! See which fork he used first!

As with all things, there is never one factor. Each factor on the list for 'reasons people support Trump' is responsible for part of the total. Attention, approval of peers, false support to avoid alienating family, genuine delusion, echo chamber misinformation, active support of his hatred, zero-information voters, and more. Each adds to the total.

Whenever this comes up, I'm reminded of my grandmother. When I was a teenager trying to figure out politics, I asked my grandmother how she voted. She told me that she always voted Republican. I asked her why. She said, "Because that's who Paul always voted for." Paul was her husband, who'd been dead for close to 20 years at that point. Her only exposure to what was happening was the local 6 o'clock news, which rarely, if ever, covered national politics. She just went in, hit the 'R' button, and never knew the first thing about the names on the ballot.

She'd have answered 'Trump' in a poll, and voted for Trump, despite the fact that she wouldn't have even considered doing so if she was aware of what he represented.

There are a lot of people out there like my grandmother - good people whose eyes glaze over at the mention of politics, who just vote based on habit or tradition.

Yeah I have family who would never in a million years consider voting for a Democrat. It's been ingrained for decades that it would be the equivalent of voting for Hitler - it doesn't even cross their mind to vote for a "liberal."

In fact, I blame my straight Republican voting record up until 2008 on just that - I was brought up to believe that you just voted R. And when you're brought up to vote that way, A) you don't typically question it, and B) you mold your belief system to support the way you're voting.

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:35 am

YellowKing wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2024 9:37 pm It's head-bangingly frustrating to think a large segment of the blue collar working class think the guy on their side is the multi-millionaire born into money that never worked a day of manual labor in his life.

I didn't want to say it because we criticize the sources a little too often, even if it's deserved most of the time, but the WSJ isn't what it used to be in terms of journalistic integrity.

The article could be true. Or not. I'm not giving the WSJ my time, so I'm going to ignore the headline. As a "both sides", Meidastouch shows up in my feed way too often, and while I don't think they mess with the facts, it's the constant opinionating that distracts and puts me off. Drumpf alienates all American allies forever during dinner party gaff! See which fork he used first!

FWIW the WSJ news articles are still top notch. It's the WSJ op/ed section which has long since abandoned the path of reason for madness.