Octopus Overlords

gbasden wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:17 pm I need to continue to be reminded that many of those people have no idea about what they are voting for. It's almost as bad for the future of the country, but at least they aren't being actively malevolent.

I dunno about many but it's not an insignificant amount by any reasonable measure. Enough to tip a vote. Enough to make it so you can't indiscriminately write off the whole lot as awful. Enough to make you shake your head and beat your head against the wall repeating what the hell, how can you abide by staying with the sea of truly awful over and over. And pragmatically it is just as bad for future of the country.

hepcat wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 10:07 pm So 10 percent of success is not showing up and not doing the work?

IN!

Otherwise known as 'schmoozing with the boss'.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 5:36 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:55 pm

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:15 pm if folks haven't seen and internalized what is abundantly clear and obvious, every single time the man opens his mouth in any venue anywhere, speaking on any topic to anyone, that's on them.

And what about the folks who haven't seen or heard anything he's said?

Those folks obviously should recuse themselves from voting.

This was me my whole life.
Too busy with life to follow politics at all. Because of this I never voted. I felt that I didn't know enough to make an educated decision.
Ironically Trump got me interested enough to at least follow on OO.
For his first run bith my wife and I wanted him to win. We based it solely on his Apprentice run but it wasn't enough for me to actually vote.
Then a lot of stuff started coming out about him out there and in here when I looked.
Queue his next run. While I didn't know a lot regarding his politics I just knew that he shouldn't represent this country in any capacity. This caused me to vote just so I could vote against him.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 5:36 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:55 pm

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:15 pm if folks haven't seen and internalized what is abundantly clear and obvious, every single time the man opens his mouth in any venue anywhere, speaking on any topic to anyone, that's on them.

And what about the folks who haven't seen or heard anything he's said?

Those folks obviously should recuse themselves from voting.

I have sadly arrived at the opinion that vast swaths of our electorate should be forcefully recused from voting. This system is broken. I blame the internet.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 7:53 pm

TheMix wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 7:41 pm There is a difference between explaining something and justifying it. Just so you are aware, BH, you sometimes come across as the latter. Or dangerously close. IMHO.

Fair point. I'm not intending to justify anything. They're in the wrong. I just see a huge, huge difference between being wrong because you didn't know better, and being in the wrong by choice.

I'm the eternal devil's advocate, trying to maintain a balance in perspective that I see slipping in our society, as we line up to point fingers, assign blame, and vent our anger. It hasn't made me a lot of friends.

OO (for the most part) is a collection of highly intelligent, educated people with highly intelligent, educated kids and highly intelligent, educated friends. I often see them applying their perspective to people who aren't so fortunate, without ever considering that it might be misplaced and counterproductive. OO isn't representative of American society, and seem to forget that their solutions may not be at all reasonable for others. What's obvious and clear to the highly intelligent, educated person can be incomprehensible to the average Joe - let alone the half of the population that's below the average.

So I try to add that other perspective in - often resulting in people acting like I'm agreeing with those who are a problem, rather than just disagreeing with the assessment.

For the record, I personally end up in line with the rest of OO on the underlying issues 99% of the time.

Well said, BH.

And I’d just add, I haven’t taken anything BH has posted in this recent conversation to suggest he feels MAGAts shouldn’t be criticized for their loyalty to Trump. I read him as making the case that criticizing is fine, but using a broad brush to paint all Trump supporters as villains is not.

I’ve been reading a number of articles on the impacts of globalization on blue collar workers after hearing The Daily about NAFTA. Few things impact someone like the loss of a job, and there are many, many blue collar workers today who blame their loss of employment on globalization and place that at the Democrats’ feet. Which is ironic, since globalization was a Reagan-era initiative later championed by the first George Bush and then carried over the finish line by Clinton. Both the GOP and, eventually, the Democrats were backers of globalization, but for many blue collar, industrial workers, the promised benefits never materialized, only the pain.

For those people, there’s only one candidate over the past decade who has never missed an opportunity to rail against globalization. And that’s Trump.

So I think it’s myopic for us to sit here in OO and claim that all these voters are backing Trump because they are villains. Some surely are. Some just want someone - even someone as loathsome and treasonous as Trump - who promises to bring back their jobs. It may be ridiculous that they fall for his bullshit and actually think he’ll do anything to help them when he’s proven time and time again he is only out for himself and is generally incompetent, but, at least to me, that’s a different matter.

Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:36 am

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 5:36 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:55 pm

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:15 pm if folks haven't seen and internalized what is abundantly clear and obvious, every single time the man opens his mouth in any venue anywhere, speaking on any topic to anyone, that's on them.

And what about the folks who haven't seen or heard anything he's said?

Those folks obviously should recuse themselves from voting.

I have sadly arrived at the opinion that vast swaths of our electorate should be forcefully recused from voting. This system is broken. I blame the internet.

It's not the voters who are broken, it's the Electoral College. Trump will lose the popular vote by 4%, give or take 1%. That ought to be the end of it, but our system comes down to maybe 100,000 people spread over two or three states. Or even worse, it will come down to a couple of votes in the SCOTUS like it did in 2000.

Kraken wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 2:29 am

Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:36 am

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 5:36 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:55 pm

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:15 pm if folks haven't seen and internalized what is abundantly clear and obvious, every single time the man opens his mouth in any venue anywhere, speaking on any topic to anyone, that's on them.

And what about the folks who haven't seen or heard anything he's said?

Those folks obviously should recuse themselves from voting.

I have sadly arrived at the opinion that vast swaths of our electorate should be forcefully recused from voting. This system is broken. I blame the internet.

It's not the voters who are broken, it's the Electoral College. Trump will lose the popular vote by 4%, give or take 1%. That ought to be the end of it, but our system comes down to maybe 100,000 people spread over two or three states. Or even worse, it will come down to a couple of votes in the SCOTUS like it did in 2000.

Maybe I’d buy that if we were only talking about the presidency. But what does the Electoral College have to do with the current state of Congress? Or the inexcusable shit that so often goes on at the state level? `

And even if we were just talking about the presidency, looking at the popular vote still leaves us with the unavoidable fact that nearly one half of the people in this country who can be bothered to vote are going to expend that minimal effort in support of someone who has tried to overthrow their system of government.

A system that is producing results that are incompatible with the system’s survival seems to me to be, almost by definition, a broken system.

Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:55 am
So I think it’s myopic for us to sit here in OO and claim that all these voters are backing Trump because they are villains.

I just wanted to focus on this tiny little nugget. Someone voting for Trump might not a a villain, correct. But they are ok with throwing in with him - which is a problem (and I think worthy of criticism).

This all goes back to the Cinemax Theory of Racism.

Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:20 am

Kraken wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 2:29 am

Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:36 am

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 5:36 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:55 pm

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:15 pm if folks haven't seen and internalized what is abundantly clear and obvious, every single time the man opens his mouth in any venue anywhere, speaking on any topic to anyone, that's on them.

And what about the folks who haven't seen or heard anything he's said?

Those folks obviously should recuse themselves from voting.

I have sadly arrived at the opinion that vast swaths of our electorate should be forcefully recused from voting. This system is broken. I blame the internet.

It's not the voters who are broken, it's the Electoral College. Trump will lose the popular vote by 4%, give or take 1%. That ought to be the end of it, but our system comes down to maybe 100,000 people spread over two or three states. Or even worse, it will come down to a couple of votes in the SCOTUS like it did in 2000.

Maybe I’d buy that if we were only talking about the presidency. But what does the Electoral College have to do with the current state of Congress? Or the inexcusable shit that so often goes on at the state level? `

And even if we were just talking about the presidency, looking at the popular vote still leaves us with the unavoidable fact that nearly one half of the people in this country who can be bothered to vote are going to expend that minimal effort in support of someone who has tried to overthrow their system of government.

A system that is producing results that are incompatible with the system’s survival seems to me to be, almost by definition, a broken system.

You're both right!

Also don't forget about how unrepresentative the Senate is, especially combined with the filibuster. Republicans have paid an electoral price for their extremism over the past decade or two, but the Senate (by disproportionately empowering conservative voters in rural states), combined with the multiple legislative fail points in the system, has allowed the GOP to retain a fairly consistently veto over legislative action it doesn't like, even when they lose elections.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:15 pm

Kurth wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 2:09 pm Not an apologist for MAGAts by any means, but I think the answer to this is that the reasonably decent people that support Trump don’t actually support Trump, the man. They support what Trump represents. And you and they would be in vehement disagreement over what that is.

...

Building off that Daily podcast about NAFTA that I mentioned upthread, I think decent people - especially the blue collar, working class voters - who support Trump would say he represents someone who is at least trying to speak them in a political system that has largely left them behind. From that perspective, their choice is between a Democratic Party that they feel has abandoned them and a Trump-led GOP that makes them feel important and seen.

I hear you, but the people that believe the Earth is flat also might be reasonably decent people. They're still delusional. At some point (I'd argue after, say, 8+ years), if folks haven't seen and internalized what is abundantly clear and obvious, every single time the man opens his mouth in any venue anywhere, speaking on any topic to anyone, that's on them. For years we here on OO (well, not me, but many of you) have done a great job outlining and affirming the excuses MAGAville may have for supporting this democracy-denying, dictatorship-desiring, deplorable dumpster of a dude.

Enough.

Yes, this is entirely my thoughts as well. Thanks for writing it.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 5:36 pm
It's not reasonable to ascribe motives to them or decry them as 'bad people.' Willfully ignorant is a reasonable criticism, but that's all.

Sure, but all Zax said was this:

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:15 pm
I hear you, but the people that believe the Earth is flat also might be reasonably decent people. They're still delusional. At some point (I'd argue after, say, 8+ years), if folks haven't seen and internalized what is abundantly clear and obvious, every single time the man opens his mouth in any venue anywhere, speaking on any topic to anyone, that's on them. For years we here on OO (well, not me, but many of you) have done a great job outlining and affirming the excuses MAGAville may have for supporting this democracy-denying, dictatorship-desiring, deplorable dumpster of a dude.

Enough.

Zax's only criticism above is that it's their fault for not being aware of what they are voting for, and that he's tired of hearing people make excuses for them.

A person who votes without paying attention when they vote isn't doing their civil duty any more than a person who flips a coin. Why even bother? How is voting for nothing any better than not voting at all? Isn't it worse?

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 10:24 am

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 5:36 pm
It's not reasonable to ascribe motives to them or decry them as 'bad people.' Willfully ignorant is a reasonable criticism, but that's all.

Sure, but all Zax said was this:

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:15 pm
I hear you, but the people that believe the Earth is flat also might be reasonably decent people. They're still delusional. At some point (I'd argue after, say, 8+ years), if folks haven't seen and internalized what is abundantly clear and obvious, every single time the man opens his mouth in any venue anywhere, speaking on any topic to anyone, that's on them. For years we here on OO (well, not me, but many of you) have done a great job outlining and affirming the excuses MAGAville may have for supporting this democracy-denying, dictatorship-desiring, deplorable dumpster of a dude.

Enough.

Zax's only criticism above is that it's their fault for not being aware of what they are voting for, and that he's tired of hearing people make excuses for them.

A person who votes without paying attention when they vote isn't doing their civil duty any more than a person who flips a coin. Why even bother? How is voting for nothing any better than not voting at all? Isn't it worse?

(in support of your comment, I'll lamely add)
you don't stop a bank-robber by blindly firing a gun into a group of people and hope to hit the robber. They aren't "doing their part" to protect the bank, even if their intention and actions all are like what the security guard over there is doing. They will tell you that they don't even know what the robber looks like, but that's not important - it's important that he's stopped - so, BANG BANG.

I guess I'm just saying that these (decent) people aren't simply acting in willful ignorance - their actions are dangerous and hurting us, quite seriously. And that is its own form of 'inexcusable' behavior.

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 10:24 am

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 5:36 pm
It's not reasonable to ascribe motives to them or decry them as 'bad people.' Willfully ignorant is a reasonable criticism, but that's all.

Sure, but all Zax said was this:

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:15 pm
I hear you, but the people that believe the Earth is flat also might be reasonably decent people. They're still delusional. At some point (I'd argue after, say, 8+ years), if folks haven't seen and internalized what is abundantly clear and obvious, every single time the man opens his mouth in any venue anywhere, speaking on any topic to anyone, that's on them. For years we here on OO (well, not me, but many of you) have done a great job outlining and affirming the excuses MAGAville may have for supporting this democracy-denying, dictatorship-desiring, deplorable dumpster of a dude.

Enough.

Zax's only criticism above is that it's their fault for not being aware of what they are voting for, and that he's tired of hearing people make excuses for them.

A person who votes without paying attention when they vote isn't doing their civil duty any more than a person who flips a coin. Why even bother? How is voting for nothing any better than not voting at all? Isn't it worse?

Thanks, GG. I’d been meaning to come back in and respond again, but you distilled it down better than I would have.

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 10:24 am A person who votes without paying attention when they vote isn't doing their civil duty any more than a person who flips a coin.

In many cases, a person who votes without paying attention lacks the information to recognize that they're not doing their civil duty. Ignorance isn't laser-focused. It isn't that they're not paying attention to current events, they're not paying attention to how politics works, and likely never have. Hell, they probably think that they're succeeding in doing their civil duty by simply voting.

Again, they're wrong. They're in the wrong. But they're not MAGA, and treating them like MAGA is counterproductive if you ever expect them (and people like them, now and in the future) to improve.

I'm just arguing against lumping them all together as being equivalent.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:05 pm In many cases, a person who votes without paying attention lacks the information to recognize that they're not doing their civil duty. Ignorance isn't laser-focused.

We all understand there are many, many reasons why people vote the way they do. Zax even mentions that in his original post. You're outlining one of them.

Fine. They are unique snowflakes that are fucking up the country for their own, less shitty but no less damaging reasons.

Great. Consider your point noted.

For the record I rarely voted as a young man and am still not fanatical about it. I definitely deserve criticism in this regard. This is not a holier than thou situation. It's that we are long, long past shrugging and "that's life"ing it away, particularly in generic discussions about anonymous people in certain demographics.

This is where things start going in circles. I've made my point knowing it would be unpopular, and I clarified my point.

Moving on.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:36 pm This is where things start going in circles. I've made my point knowing it would be unpopular, and I clarified my point.

Moving on.

It's not much of a point, is my point, and it's a point that isn't really in opposition to what Zax said, making it even less of a point than your bravery has lead you to believe.

edit: Oh, to clarify, I probably shouldn't speak for anyone else. Your point is unpopular for sure, but mainly with me, and not for the reasons you think. I fully acknowledge the truth of your point. I still think it's of little use in Zax's context.

edit: More clarification. Sure, I'm lashing out, but it's not just about your point. Kurth says "not all drumpf voters are bad people". Zax says "sure, but they are harming the country anyway and I'm tired of hearing people make excuses for them". Then you say "not all drumpf voters are bad people".

wtf dude?

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:37 pmIt's not much of a point, is my point, and it's a point that isn't really in opposition to what Zax said, making it even less of a point than your bravery has lead you to believe.

Agreed that it's not (from my perspective) in opposition. I just think it's beside the point. To add a little opposition, though:

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:05 pmI'm just arguing against lumping them all together as being equivalent.

For the purposes of the danger our country's in, and the damage they do to it and to many (many!) marginalized groups, they are literally equivalent. Which perhaps is why I have so little patience for excusing them at this stage.

And I am of the belief that said attitude and approach is going to be a tremendous hurdle to overcome if we're ever going to move beyond this 'cold civil war' that's defined this era of American politics.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:44 pm

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:37 pmIt's not much of a point, is my point, and it's a point that isn't really in opposition to what Zax said, making it even less of a point than your bravery has lead you to believe.

Agreed that it's not (from my perspective) in opposition. I just think it's beside the point. To add a little opposition, though:

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:05 pmI'm just arguing against lumping them all together as being equivalent.

For the purposes of the danger our country's in, and the damage they do to it and to many (many!) marginalized groups, they are literally equivalent. Which perhaps is why I have so little patience for excusing them at this stage.

To Zaxxon's point, since I'm potentially one of the marginalized groups, let's say we don't lump the opposition together into the same group.

Trump gets elected.
So now Raydude's been booted from the US. Do we still not lump them together into the same group?
A child of someone in OO commits suicide because of LGBTQ or trans backlash. Do we still not lump them together into the same group?

I mean, I guess if one wants the moral high ground that's all fine and dandy. But here I am stuck outside the US.

As a member of OO with a trans child, I get that.

But if my moral and ethical views were dependent on them being convenient and comfortable, I'd order a red hat.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:05 pm I'm just arguing against lumping them all together as being equivalent.

Except... they are all being lumped into the "voting for Trump" bucket. Which is why your comments don't make any sense to me. And why it comes across, at least to me, as justification or excusing.

There are only two buckets being discussed. At least in this context. I think everyone has acknowledged that there are Republicans that are not MAGAs. But I really don't understand what you want from Zaxxon. You are telling him not to lump all the Trump voters together when he's talking about voting for Trump or not voting for Trump. As Zax said, they literally are equivalent.

For what it's worth, I'm firmly with Zax. I'm tired of hearing excuses and justifications. I don't care. I am no longer giving anyone a "pass". Don't want to pay attention? Fine. Then don't vote. But anyone that votes/supports Trump is complicit. Regardless of their reasoning. There are only two options here. (Well, three if we include declining to vote.)

IMHO, discussions about making allowances, or separating Trump "supporters" by reasons, is not productive at this stage. At least not for what was being discussed.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:47 pm And I am of the belief that said attitude and approach is going to be a tremendous hurdle to overcome if we're ever going to move beyond this 'cold civil war' that's defined this era of American politics.

Well when there is a chance to educate and discuss with reasonable but uninformed people, we'll do that. In the meantime, here in board discussions, yeah, they suck too. I'm sure they think I suck for my own failings. They are probably right. Being understanding and reasonable doesn't mean tolerating dangerous, country ending behaviour. Even if they are not aware they are behaving dangerously. Especially not, I'd say.

This (part of the) discussion is not about why people vote for drumpf. It's about what happens when they vote for drumpf.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:47 pm And I am of the belief that said attitude and approach is going to be a tremendous hurdle to overcome if we're ever going to move beyond this 'cold civil war' that's defined this era of American politics.

Ah, the old ‘do you want to be right, or happy/effective/loved/sane” etc idea.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:54 pm As a member of OO with a trans child, I get that.

But if my moral and ethical views were dependent on them being convenient and comfortable, I'd order a red hat.

That makes no sense to me. To me - you are saying there are moral or ethical views promoted by MAGA that you find convenient and comfortable, but reject them because you actually have morals and ethics.

So, yeah - that's (mostly) all of us?

Not sure what this, 'but' implied - as it seems to imply that taking the opinion that any Trump voter is a problem - is itself just a shallow, convenient, and comfortable thing we are letting our morals depend on?

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:59 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:47 pm And I am of the belief that said attitude and approach is going to be a tremendous hurdle to overcome if we're ever going to move beyond this 'cold civil war' that's defined this era of American politics.

Well when there is a chance to educate and discuss with reasonable but uninformed people, we'll do that. In the meantime, here in board discussions, yeah, they suck too.

this.

I kind of side more with Blackhawk on this one. I'm not saying I like the idea of "reaching across the aisle and understanding the other side," but I don't see a way out of our current political state without doing so. Harris extending an olive branch and trying to reach out to Republican voters is the kind of action we need. And it's going to take time, a long time, to chip away at those old prejudices.

We've seen what happens when you just demonize the other side and dismiss them. It's Trump politics 101. It gets us nowhere, and just breeds more hate and resentment. I don't blame anyone for wanting to do that; I go through those phases quite often where I just want all Trump voters to jump off a tall cliff. But I know logically that's not helping the long-term problem whatsoever, and in fact is just fueling it.

But.

No one is against reaching across the aisle (not sure what that entails really though), and no one disagrees on the understanding of the other side really...
And, frankly - we specifically didn't demonize them - we said they are willingly part of a demon's army and giving the demon his strength.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:44 pm

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:37 pmIt's not much of a point, is my point, and it's a point that isn't really in opposition to what Zax said, making it even less of a point than your bravery has lead you to believe.

Agreed that it's not (from my perspective) in opposition. I just think it's beside the point. To add a little opposition, though:

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:05 pmI'm just arguing against lumping them all together as being equivalent.

For the purposes of the danger our country's in, and the damage they do to it and to many (many!) marginalized groups, they are literally equivalent. Which perhaps is why I have so little patience for excusing them at this stage.

I really don’t understand what you mean by “excusing them.” That phrase has been used multiple times in this discussion, and I don’t get it. What does that mean? Because trying to understand why they are doing something that is so harmful to the country and, from our perspective, so contrary to their own interests doesn’t strike me as “excusing” Trump voters for supporting him.

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:59 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:47 pm And I am of the belief that said attitude and approach is going to be a tremendous hurdle to overcome if we're ever going to move beyond this 'cold civil war' that's defined this era of American politics.

This (part of the) discussion is not about why people vote for drumpf. It's about what happens when they vote for drumpf.

Wait. Maybe I lost the thread here. I thought this discussion was all about “why people vote for drumpf.” When was there ever any disagreement about what happens when they vote for drumpf? I think we all agree what that nightmare looks like.

Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 2:14 pm

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:44 pm

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:37 pmIt's not much of a point, is my point, and it's a point that isn't really in opposition to what Zax said, making it even less of a point than your bravery has lead you to believe.

Agreed that it's not (from my perspective) in opposition. I just think it's beside the point. To add a little opposition, though:

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:05 pmI'm just arguing against lumping them all together as being equivalent.

For the purposes of the danger our country's in, and the damage they do to it and to many (many!) marginalized groups, they are literally equivalent. Which perhaps is why I have so little patience for excusing them at this stage.

I really don’t understand what you mean by “excusing them.” That phrase has been used multiple times in this discussion, and I don’t get it. What does that mean? Because trying to understand why they are doing something that is so harmful to the country and, from our perspective, so contrary to their own interests doesn’t strike me as “excusing” Trump voters for supporting him.

I think BH has done a good job explaining why they are doing something that is so harmful. No one is (I don't think) debating that part. Understanding it isn't the difficult part here, IMO. It's what happens after that part. BH is essentially espousing [as it reads to me, at least--especially when it's been brought out by him repeatedly over many years] an 'aw, shucks! People out here just don't know any better, it's really too bad that they don't have any way of knowing or doing better' attitude, followed essentially by the forum version of this:



Which is, of course, nonsense--the information is out there, people could do better, no one is literally locked into only getting their news from Fox News in 2024 (or 2020, or 2016), etc.

My point (such as it is, and it's worth every penny you paid for it) is simply that I don't particularly care what the reasoning is at this point--as I mentioned earlier:

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 5:44 pm We have three options left for these folks: delusional, willfully ignorant, and deplorable. None of those is something we should continue excusing as the country (and planet) burns.

I'm just over pretending that those folks may not belong to one of these three categories, none of which reflects positively on anyone in them.

I don't know what the answer is to get through to those people other than [less ignorant/more intelligent/however you want to frame it] people near to them (physically or socially), like BH, not letting it slide in their interactions with them. That is what might actually get through to them. It's certainly not going to be internet randos like me reaching out (whether or not I frame it more positively than I have here), nor new government programs designed to educate them, nor the D party reaching out--by BH's own argument, these folks would never even know that the D party had reached out!

Meanwhile, I don't think it's as rude/mean/blind as some make it seem for me to suggest that these folks clearly are not living up to their civic duty, and should not be voting. Note that I'm not suggesting that their right to vote be removed. Just that their exercising of that right while terminally uninformed is doing clear damage to our democratic system, and that's painful when it's teetering so precariously.

There are people who live in communities where literally every single person they interact with is a pro-Trumper. I'm not sure how we expect someone in that environment, who may not be well-educated, who has not learned critical thinking, to escape from that bubble. Saying they should "do better" smacks a bit of someone from white privilege not understanding why the single black mother doesn't just do something to get herself out of her poverty situation.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 2:57 pm There are people who live in communities where literally every single person they interact with is a pro-Trumper. I'm not sure how we expect someone in that environment, who may not be well-educated, who has not learned critical thinking, to escape from that bubble. Saying they should "do better" smacks a bit of someone from white privilege not understanding why the single black mother doesn't just do something to get herself out of her poverty situation.

Pulling the worst possible interpretation of what I said, then making a straw man comparison, isn't helpful. Most people (yes, even among the MAGAs) have someone in their circle who doesn't have the trifecta of conditions you outlined above. And many people (yes, even among the MAGAs) are capable of doing better and just don't wanna.

It wasn't meant as a personal attack on what you said, just an observation that I think the "buckets" and the means of getting out of those buckets sounds a bit oversimplified to me.

I think we here on OO are speaking from a position of privilege where "just look at the facts and make the right choice!" seems like a simple thing to do, and I just don't think it's that easy for a lot of people. There are multiple factors for that. Upbringing, community, religious beliefs, personal experiences, family.

I don't know what the answer is to reaching those folks other than chipping away over time. Hell, I WAS one of those people. It took years.

From a personal standpoint, what irks me is that I'm being told that I can't hold them accountable. I can't blame them for their lack of involvement. No, instead, I should give them a pass. I should "excuse" their behavior. I call bullshit. Unless we are going back to the "there is no free will" argument.

I am accountable for my actions. Being told that others should not be held accountable for their actions... Well, it certainly makes me less inclined to engage here (which, interestingly, seems to be exactly what I'm being accused of doing to others).

YellowKing wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:03 pm It wasn't meant as a personal attack on what you said, just an observation that I think the "buckets" and the means of getting out of those buckets sounds a bit oversimplified to me.

I think we here on OO are speaking from a position of privilege where "just look at the facts and make the right choice!" seems like a simple thing to do, and I just don't think it's that easy for a lot of people. There are multiple factors for that. Upbringing, community, religious beliefs, personal experiences, family.

I've gotta pull this one out again, for that one:

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 3:15 pm I hear you, but the people that believe the Earth is flat also might be reasonably decent people. They're still delusional. At some point (I'd argue after, say, 8+ years), if folks haven't seen and internalized what is abundantly clear and obvious, every single time the man opens his mouth in any venue anywhere, speaking on any topic to anyone, that's on them. For years we here on OO (well, not me, but many of you) have done a great job outlining and affirming the excuses MAGAville may have for supporting this democracy-denying, dictatorship-desiring, deplorable dumpster of a dude.

Enough.

Forrest Gump would immediately know that Trump is an idiot that shouldn't be anywhere near a position of power over anyone else. It takes nearly zero intelligence, and only the vaguest hint of self-awareness. And if someone is 8 years in, having literally never heard Trump speak (as I believe BH mentioned upthread)? Also inexcusable. We. Are. Making. Excuses.

Of course they have blame, and should be held accountable for being ignorant.

What 'held accountable' means to many non-Trump Americans is severe, especially when the passively wrong are equated with the willfully reprehensible. How we treat them at this point likely won't have any impact on the election, and if Trump wins, it won't matter. But if Trump loses, we're still going to have a hard journey to come back from where we are. If the goal is for the country to survive (and maybe improve), then we are going to have to win a hell of a lot more than just the election. Focusing equal derision on the redeemable until they're reprehensible themselves is a losing proposition.

We aren't going to end the civil cold war with the Treaty of Versailles, even if that means having to grit our teeth and not punch the neighbor who blindly marked (R).

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:27 pmFocusing equal derision on the redeemable until they're reprehensible themselves is a losing proposition.

How many 4-year election cycles would be the appropriate amount, before derision is warranted? We're at 3 now. 4? 5? What if it's also the case that 3 is the maximum number the country can survive?

I think people are getting tired of 'our side' always having to make the effort to keep the relationship healthy. We need to understand where they are coming from. We have to compromise. We have to reach across the aisle. They are in this too and bear some responsibility.