Octopus Overlords

I just know that from personal experience, I went from straight Republican ticket voter for most of my life to registered Democrat rabid anti-Trumper not because people wrote me off. I got that way in large part through people on this forum engaging in civil debate and pointing out where I was wrong. And it took a lot of personal introspection, and finally my Republican governor pissing me off so bad with that stupid bathroom bill that he broke the final straw.

I think the long-term solution has to be understanding and communication. Over and over.

So yeah, I get the anger and not wanting to make excuses. I feel that way a lot. But logically I know it's not solving the problem.

It seems some of us here are ready to throw down, declare the other as enemy, and be done with it. Which, let's face it, is exactly what the government wants us to do. As long as the red ants and black ants are fighting each other, we're not holding the real cuplrits accountable.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:32 pmI think the long-term solution has to be understanding and communication. Over and over.

Not aiming this solely at you, YK, but I want to dig into this, since this is essentially what keeps getting brought up as a solution--but is shot down by the very argument being made to 'defend' the actions of the MAGA-voting ignor-opulace: that they don't see/hear communication from outside the bubble.

So, specifically what form of understanding/communication are you advocating? How will it work, and how quickly do you expect it to turn 30% of the country into sane-voting individuals? Is it quickly enough to address this:

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:30 pm How many 4-year election cycles would be the appropriate amount, before derision is warranted? We're at 3 now. 4? 5? What if it's also the case that 3 is the maximum number the country can survive?

?

I don't think it's possible for anyone to change unless they themselves ultimately want to change. Not to get all philosophical or deep, but for so many of the people we're talking about there is zero motivation to change. They vote (R) for the same reason they use a specific topping on a hot dog or buy a certain brand at the store. It just "is" and it's not something to discuss or debate or evaluate. There is no careful reflection; there is no questioning. There is no torch you can pass to them in their cave of self-imposed ignorance because they're perfectly happy in that existence.

It's not even a matter of educating them about how they could benefit by making different choices. Or how their choices are actively hurting someone else - a family member or a random stranger.

Zaxxon wrote:Not aiming this solely at you, YK, but I want to dig into this, since this is essentially what keeps getting brought up as a solution

I don't expect it to work quickly. I expect it's a generational shift. Helped along by demographic shifts in certain states.

If your response to that is, "Well then we're fucked," I don't know that I'd disagree with you. I think we barely saved democracy in 2020. We may barely save it in 2024. At some point, our luck is probably going to run out. My hope is that if Harris can win bigly enough that MAGA loses power and somehow we buy ourselves some time to maybe shift the electorate just a bit more blue before the next election. I'm not super confident.

I do think what Harris is doing (trying to reach moderate Republican voters), along with non-MAGA Republicans endorsing Harris is a good step in the right direction.

I can give an example of one other voting mindset. I asked my daughter if she was going to vote and she said no. I asked why, and she said she didn't like what the Democrats did. Presumably she was talking about Covid mandates, but I didn't press her on it.

I pointed out it was important to vote against down ballot (R)s who want to take away women's rights. Apparently that was not enough to sway her to vote so I dropped it. Fortunately California is a Blue state, but a few A-hole (R)s still manage to get elected.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:43 pmI do think what Harris is doing (trying to reach moderate Republican voters), along with non-MAGA Republicans endorsing Harris is a good step in the right direction.

The latter part is absolutely part of what I think has to be done to have any chance--Rs endorsing Harris. Gets back to this:

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:00 pmMost people (yes, even among the MAGAs) have someone in their circle who doesn't have the trifecta of conditions...

Jaymann wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:52 pm I can give an example of one other voting mindset. I asked my daughter if she was going to vote and she said no. I asked why, and she said she didn't like what the Democrats did. Presumably she was talking about Covid mandates, but I didn't press her on it.

I legitimately do not understand this. If she didn't like "what the democrats did" related to COVID-19 mandates (?) she's really not going to like what Trump and MAGA are going to do if he's re-elected.

Perfect is still the enemy of good. Possibly more so than ever in 2024.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:58 pm

Jaymann wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:52 pm I can give an example of one other voting mindset. I asked my daughter if she was going to vote and she said no. I asked why, and she said she didn't like what the Democrats did. Presumably she was talking about Covid mandates, but I didn't press her on it.

I legitimately do not understand this. If she didn't like "what the democrats did" related to COVID-19 mandates (?) she's really not going to like what Trump and MAGA are going to do if he's re-elected.

Perfect is still the enemy of good. Possibly more so than ever in 2024.

I completely agree. But peace in the family is also important. And when you're up against a brick wall there is no point in trying to batter it down with your bare hands. I can't get her to vote, but I made my point without destroying our relationship.

Alefroth wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:30 pm I think people are getting tired of 'our side' always having to make the effort to keep the relationship healthy. We need to understand where they are coming from. We have to compromise. We have to reach across the aisle. They are in this too and bear some responsibility.

I'm tired of it, too. All of it.

What's the alternative? And what's the long-term cost to the nation?

Oh yeah, to be clear I wasn't suggesting you have any ability to change things. I was just voicing my exasperation at hearing yet another story just like yours.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 4:05 pm What's the alternative? And what's the long-term cost to the nation?

What's happening now. Democracy is slipping from our grasp as a nation. We're sliding into whatever his happening next because there aren't enough people engaged in what it means to be a responsible citizen. Unless that changes - and enough people put the same care and consideration into following local and national politics as they do football, it's just a matter of time before motivated actors hijack the system to a large enough degree that it will fundamentally change our social and cultural existence.

SEE: Iran in the late 1970s.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 4:05 pm

Alefroth wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:30 pm I think people are getting tired of 'our side' always having to make the effort to keep the relationship healthy. We need to understand where they are coming from. We have to compromise. We have to reach across the aisle. They are in this too and bear some responsibility.

I'm tired of it, too. All of it.

What's the alternative? And what's the long-term cost to the nation?

There isn't one. We're f*cked.

I don't think there's a realistic chance to move the needle to a more moderate R party on a large scale via outreach and communication from Ds. You'll get occasional converts (such as YK and me (although I don't know how much of an R I was given I hadn't voted for an R for prez since Bush I)), but that's an exception. To get things back to a (relatively) functional two party system, the Rs need to save themselves, and that's going to come from a charismatic, popular R who disavows Trumpism. I don't know who that person will be, and it'll take a while for that to be viable (and we may not have the time if Trump wins), but it's more likely than outreach and education to work on the Rs who see Ds as the enemy.

In other words, it doesn't really matter whether we lump all the Trump voters into the deplorable bucket or not, at least from a "how do things get better" perspective.

Alefroth wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 4:09 pm

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 4:05 pm

Alefroth wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:30 pm I think people are getting tired of 'our side' always having to make the effort to keep the relationship healthy. We need to understand where they are coming from. We have to compromise. We have to reach across the aisle. They are in this too and bear some responsibility.

I'm tired of it, too. All of it.

What's the alternative? And what's the long-term cost to the nation?

There isn't one. We're f*cked.

If there isn't one and we're already fucked, then we should quit worrying, grab a beer, and roast some marshmallows as it burns.

But I don't think we're there. We're going to be needing Reconstruction Light, which is part of why I'm saying what I'm saying. If Trump loses and MAGA falls apart (fingers crossed), we're going to have to start looking for ways to try and pull this country back together and keep this from happening again. The people we're discussing are going to have to be part of that, and maybe even an essential part.

That's a big part of why I think it's a mistake to burn those bridges now just because we're tired of the bullshit and angry feels better than helplessness.

And when it comes time to look at the 'prevent if from happening again' element, we're going to have to look hardest at the crazy number who don't vote at all.

If we get to Reconstruction Light, I would sure hope we're also improving the guardrails on the system (which, yes, would ideally include basic civics requirements in order to maintain a right to vote, which would remove this bucket of folks from the list of problems). I recognize that this is unlikely, which returns me to the knowledge that we're fucked.

Kurth wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 2:19 pm

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 12:59 pm This (part of the) discussion is not about why people vote for drumpf.

Wait. Maybe I lost the thread here. I thought this discussion was all about “why people vote for drumpf.” When was there ever any disagreement about what happens when they vote for drumpf? I think we all agree what that nightmare looks like.

*This part of the discussion*.

In any case, I like that Kamala's thread is about whether drumpf voters are shitty people or not.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 4:18 pm If we get to Reconstruction Light, I would sure hope we're also improving the guardrails on the system (which, yes, would ideally include basic civics requirements in order to maintain a right to vote, which would remove this bucket of folks from the list of problems). I recognize that this is unlikely, which returns me to the knowledge that we're fucked.

That I agree with. Some form of civics needs to return to K-12 education as well, along with critical thinking (critical thinking would have stopped MAGA in it's tracks.)

Not that it's likely, but it would be a target to aim for.

Blackhawk wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 4:20 pm

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 4:18 pm If we get to Reconstruction Light, I would sure hope we're also improving the guardrails on the system (which, yes, would ideally include basic civics requirements in order to maintain a right to vote, which would remove this bucket of folks from the list of problems). I recognize that this is unlikely, which returns me to the knowledge that we're fucked.

That I agree with. Some form of civics needs to return to K-12 education as well, along with critical thinking (critical thinking would have stopped MAGA in it's tracks.)

Not that it's likely, but it would be a target to aim for.

Alefroth wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:30 pm I think people are getting tired of 'our side' always having to make the effort to keep the relationship healthy. We need to understand where they are coming from. We have to compromise. We have to reach across the aisle. They are in this too and bear some responsibility.

I have thoughts on this that I haven't fully worked through yet.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:32 pm I think the long-term solution has to be understanding and communication. Over and over.

The education system HAS to play a part in educating citizens. I don't know what your system is doing but it doesn't seem to know its reason for being.

You also need to stop the for profit media from pounding and pounding and pounding your citizenry with lies and half truths and spin. You don't need to make them arrive at moral and ethical conclusions, but you need to at least give them a chance to form their own opinion. It's just a constant firehose of "this is what you think!" and literally anything can be spun to support it. Anything. I was shocked (for some reason, honestly, I'm naive still) to hear that the actual consequences of climate change that are factual and happening and impacting climate change deniers, things that were predicted to happen and are now happening, are being spun as the fault of "other things" (usually enemies) and not climate change.

People on the coast are literally going to be submerged still screaming "roll coal", claims of literal Satan, and how wokeness bringing more salt water onto their property than in the "good ol' days".

It's a clown show. No one could write this as fiction because it's too crazy.

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 4:27 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:32 pm I think the long-term solution has to be understanding and communication. Over and over.

The education system HAS to play a part in educating citizens. I don't know what your system is doing but it doesn't seem to know its reason for being.

It's passing tests.

GreenGoo wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 4:27 pm

YellowKing wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:32 pm I think the long-term solution has to be understanding and communication. Over and over.

The education system HAS to play a part in educating citizens. I don't know what your system is doing but it doesn't seem to know its reason for being.

I'm sure this isn't news to you, but MAGA are actively working to undermine the education system. They are reaping pretty good results from their efforts.

It is not news to me.

Its going to be nice having a President that is both black and a female. Really will make the maga crowd chew their balls off.

YellowKing wrote: ↑Fri Oct 11, 2024 3:03 pm I think we here on OO are speaking from a position of privilege where "just look at the facts and make the right choice!" seems like a simple thing to do, and I just don't think it's that easy for a lot of people. There are multiple factors for that. Upbringing, community, religious beliefs, personal experiences, family.

I don't know what the answer is to reaching those folks other than chipping away over time. Hell, I WAS one of those people. It took years.

Which proves you can change. I grew up in conservative rural Republican Illinois, and learned to overcome those factors.

The American dream is to be better than your parents. Not just to have more money than them. Another reason why the Republican Party and MAGA fails.

It struck me today while thinking about this topic that we're very quick to blame the voters. But a LOT of them are victims of a right-wing media propaganda machine and Republican party leadership who outright lie to their faces every single day. You hear the horror stories of people whose parents have gone from good, decent people to MAGA conspiracy nutjobs. I find it hard to blame those people who have been absolutely exploited by the system.

Don't blame the zombie, blame the zombie virus.

Still. Zombie!!!!

Unagi wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2024 1:15 pm To be clear, is this a Christian friend of yours that, as an evangelical, was questioning why you wouldn't support his most obvious choice (Trump) as an evangelical - - and that your reply basically pointed to 'non-Christian' reasons for not supporting Trump?

Yes.

My question is this, if my above characterization is more-or-less the case; Do you or do you not feel you could also push back against an evangelical Christian about Trump being the most obvious choice for an evangelical Christian? Caused, shit man - the idea that the Jesus you all have in your hearts and minds would support Trump is just absurd to me. I mean, honestly, has the evangelical need to control a woman's body completely eclipsed every other CORE Christian value? I mean it. Seriously. I'm just blown away by serious GOOD religious people who seemingly honor morality and yet they can't make a totally solid non-secular, completely Christian reason to run away from Trump?

First, let's do some deck clearing. The Evangelicals stance isn't about a "need to control" a woman's body. That's a bad faith characterization of what they believe. If you are going to engage someone in a discussion, at least be honest about what they believe and why they believe it. It's the equivalent of saying Democrats support LBGTQ because they are just perverts. Neither is true, and both block any honest discussion.

That said, sure you can make a moral Christian argument as to why not to support Trump. But that's a loser, because then it just becomes a matter of opinion as to which party is the most/least moral/immoral, because people will value and weight various moral issues differently. From a Christian perspective, neither party is perfect, both have their flaws. But for many, abortion is THE issue, because in their minds, you are killing children. You may not agree with that (probably don't) but that is their honest deeply held belief (I'm not saying there aren't holes that can be poked in that argument, nor are they totally consistent - but that goes with about any human belief - and I don't want to get into an abortion debate here, so let's not do that). And that issue - abortion - is going to Trump (haha) any other moral arguments you can make. So you're just going to run up against that unbreachable wall. No other moral arguments are going to overcome that argument.

But that's not the reason I argued as I did. I made this argument because it is the one I truly believe. For me the constitutional issues are the most important. If there was a dream candidate who espoused every position that I like, I'd still be against him/her because of their failure to uphold the constitution.

To be honest, the first two issues were polemical ones, as conservatives like to think they support the police/military, and I just wanted to show their general hypocrisy on this issue But the constitutional issues are fact based - no one can deny that Trump tried to manipulate Pence, no one can deny Trump set up slates of fake electors, no one can deny that he did nothing on Jan. 6. Those are incontrovertible facts.

Oh, and my friend did respond. He said, "You didn't answer my question" (because my post was all about Trump and not Harris I presume). So I just responded that I believe that Harris would preserve, protect and defend the constitution and that she wouldn't violate her oath of office I also noted that if Harris lost the election, is there anyone who believes that she would cry "Fraud" and refuse to seat Republican electors?

I hope that clarifies things a bit for you.

It does, a bit.

I will say that, from my own perspective - and exposure to religion and Christianity and just about every rule of 'morality' -- the idea that arguing against Trump as a Christian being a losing argument -- is about the saddest (and I'm sure entirely accurate) thing someone could say about Christianity. If he is not the very embodiment of -sin-, I don't know what to say.


For instance.... Is there a Christian transgression that Trump could commit that would make you absolutely lose your mind if you listened to a Christian friend argue they were still putting their faith-based vote behind him? Like let's say hypothetically speaking that he raped his own daughter, but that Trump supporters could overlook that. Would it always just be a losing argument, do ya think?

I'm beginning to think Megan McCain needs serious therapy:

“Now, I know democrats want to reinvent history and turn my Dad into any illusion you guys need him to be depending on the political moment you need to bastardize his memory for,” she wrote on X. “But please don’t make me start sharing what I remember him ACTUALLY saying about Kamala Harris….”

In another post, McCain wrote, “And consider this my final warning shot, I will start spilling tea.”

What Harris said:

And then I step onto the floor of the well of the Senate later that day — we had votes — and I passed by John McCain, and he looks at me and he says, “Kid, come over here. You’re going to make a great senator.” True story. True story. True story.

That was John McCain. That was John McCain. I was talking about him last night at a rally, right? John McCain, who — you know, we didn’t agree on everything, but, man, I mean, what about an incredible American hero? Again, strength — strength — right? — we know what the former president said about John McCain; I’m not going to repeat it here — but strength.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2024 2:23 pm In another post, McCain wrote, “And consider this my final warning shot, I will start spilling tea.”

What. She'll reveal how much he loved TFG and demonstrably showed his admiration for the MAGA movement? And this will create a whole new generation of hateful bigots who worship other people's pursuit of money and seek to become through treachery?

She really does seem to be loathsome, doesn't she?

LordMortis wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2024 2:44 pm

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2024 2:23 pm In another post, McCain wrote, “And consider this my final warning shot, I will start spilling tea.”

What. She'll reveal how much he loved TFG and demonstrably showed his admiration for the MAGA movement? And this will create a whole new generation of hateful bigots who worship other people's pursuit of money and seek to become through treachery?

She really does seem to be loathsome, doesn't she?

Which is actually pretty sad. In another timeline she may have ridden that family name to some sort of governmental position. Not bloody likely now.

Evangelicals can't even say Trump is anti-abortion.

Alefroth wrote: ↑Sat Oct 12, 2024 4:59 pm Evangelicals can't even say Trump is anti-abortion.

I wonder how many he has personally paid for. I'll wager the number is nonzero.

I agree with that.

Democrats on Twitter seem to be in panic mode as Harris’ honeymoon seems to be over and the race tightens. I don’t know whether this is an overreaction or I should just go ahead and hibernate for 4 years and just pray that we have survived them when I awake.

I'm already largely holed up at home. It doesn't do much good when you live in little MAGAland, though. The only only thing going for it is that they don't love or trust each other either. If you ain't family and friends then ultimately you're them. There may be a TFG call and response like they're trying to mate find in the dense woods but their amorous declarations for each other don't mean shit when it comes to the fact they believe they can to do whatever they want to to at the expense of those around them. Violent disregard for those around you is what it is.

I repeat - this election will be won or lost based on the number of people that don't or haven't historically voted coming out and supporting Harris/Walz. If those folks still cannot be bothered, we're done because I'm convinced we're at a coin flip now in America based on how things are intentionally configured - expecting so many not to actually vote. If non-voters start participating, the systems that have been created to account for their absence will collapse.

Smoove_B wrote: ↑Mon Oct 14, 2024 3:40 pm I repeat - this election will be won or lost based on the number of people that don't or haven't historically voted coming out and supporting Harris/Walz. If those folks still cannot be bothered, we're done because I'm convinced we're at a coin flip now in America based on how things are intentionally configured - expecting so many not to actually vote. If non-voters start participating, the systems that have been created to account for their absence will collapse.

We need to have banned abortion in the last two year before every election apparently. Our memories don't go past the list midterm, I guess.