Octopus Overlords

MKBHD & crew try out a 1,000-ish mile road trip side-by-side in a Mach-E, a Model S, and an Audi Q5 ICE.



I found this to be very fair, and the Tesla side mirrors my experience in around 25k miles of road-tripping.

tl;dr - About 90 minutes of time added relative to the gas car per 1,000 miles in the Tesla [Model S in this case, X in mine]. (Model 3 would be more like 60 minutes per 1,000 miles.) Mach-E would have likely been pretty similar to the S were it not for the terrible charging experience (which will get better over time).

Can't wait for Tesla to open up the Supercharger network so owners of other EVs can retire the 'crappy charging network' situation. I'm sure Electrify America will also get there eventually, too.

Compared to the amount of time you save by never going to the gas station ever again it shouldn't even be a contest.

malchior wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:21 pm GM bolt production shuts down due to shortage of battery packs. There is still a lot of supply chain disruption happening out in the economy.

That's not a supply chain issue. That's a result of not being sure they can make a defect free battery.

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:16 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:21 pm GM bolt production shuts down due to shortage of battery packs. There is still a lot of supply chain disruption happening out in the economy.

That's not a supply chain issue. That's a result of not being sure they can make a defect free battery.

Defects from a supplier are supply chain issues.

coopasonic wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:41 pm Compared to the amount of time you save by never going to the gas station ever again it shouldn't even be a contest.

Not sure I understand. Aren't you just swapping out going to a gas station with going to a charging station?

Time to fill up a tank of gas = ?
Time to charge your EV = ?

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:23 pm

coopasonic wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:41 pm Compared to the amount of time you save by never going to the gas station ever again it shouldn't even be a contest.

Not sure I understand. Aren't you just swapping out going to a gas station with going to a charging station?

Time to fill up a tank of gas = ?
Time to charge your EV = ?

Day to day charging time is zero because I just plug it in when I park it in the garage.

malchior wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:19 pm

stessier wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:16 pm

malchior wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:21 pm GM bolt production shuts down due to shortage of battery packs. There is still a lot of supply chain disruption happening out in the economy.

That's not a supply chain issue. That's a result of not being sure they can make a defect free battery.

Defects from a supplier are supply chain issues.

Ok, but it is unique and not an indication of any greater economic trend.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:56 pm Can't wait for Tesla to open up the Supercharger network so owners of other EVs can retire the 'crappy charging network' situation. I'm sure Electrify America will also get there eventually, too.

This plus the Monro road trip is enlightening and not in a great way unless you thing Tesla is the only real EV.

Don't want to get anyone's hopes up but...

New EV credit that is the sum of:

$4,000 base amount
$3,500 if the EV has a battery of at least 40kWh
$4,500 if the final assembly occurs at a domestic, unionized plant
$500 if at least 50% of components and battery cells are manufactured in the US.

The credit is now refundable, and can be remitted to the dealer at the point of sale. The credit also has an income limit, but only phases out above incomes of $400,000 Single/$800,000 MFJ. There are also new MSRP restrictions, so any EV above the following MSRP's is ineligible for a credit:

$55,000 for a sedan
$64,000 for a van
$69,000 for an SUV
$74,000 for a pickup

Can Fremont unionize real quick?

It'd be really nice if this could be fiscal 2022. Previous versions were going to be retro to Jan 1 2021 so seems unlikely.

I think the odds of such a crazy union bonus getting thru the Senate is about a 1% chance.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:33 pm I think the odds of such a crazy union bonus getting thru the Senate is about a 1% chance.

The previous talking points were looking at a union bonus of $2500, so it's not that much of a stretch.

stessier wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:03 pm

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 3:33 pm I think the odds of such a crazy union bonus getting thru the Senate is about a 1% chance.

The previous talking points were looking at a union bonus of $2500, so it's not that much of a stretch.

We'll see what passes.

As expected, bigger fish than Tesla are also annoyed by the crazy union provision.

Looking forward to seeing these on the streets (or on the not-streets, as they are also intended)...

Not sure where best to put this; could have gone here or in the global warming thread, or in an infrstructure plan thread that I didn't find. Fits fine here, tho. Two of the things that come up often in discussions of electric vehicles are powering them cleanly and 'can the grid handle it?' An area that needs a lot of work in the US to aid in both these counts is high-power transmission line expansion and modernization.

This is part of the big infrastructure plans being worked out now, but whether we see enough investment to get us where we need to be, I guess we'll see. This Vox video is a good illustration of the inadequacy of the current situation, though.

coopasonic wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:25 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:23 pm

coopasonic wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:41 pm Compared to the amount of time you save by never going to the gas station ever again it shouldn't even be a contest.

Not sure I understand. Aren't you just swapping out going to a gas station with going to a charging station?

Time to fill up a tank of gas = ?
Time to charge your EV = ?

Day to day charging time is zero because I just plug it in when I park it in the garage.

So you never drive your EV any sort of long distance where you might have to charge away from home?

pr0ner wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:25 am

coopasonic wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:25 pm

Carpet_pissr wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:23 pm

coopasonic wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:41 pm Compared to the amount of time you save by never going to the gas station ever again it shouldn't even be a contest.

Not sure I understand. Aren't you just swapping out going to a gas station with going to a charging station?

Time to fill up a tank of gas = ?
Time to charge your EV = ?

Day to day charging time is zero because I just plug it in when I park it in the garage.

So you never drive your EV any sort of long distance where you might have to charge away from home?

The overall total still tends to favor EV owners. We've done the math on prior threads, but basically you're (the average 'you') saving 10 minutes or so on a weekly basis at home (8-ish hours/year), in exchange for adding a few of hours annually on trips (again as an average). That comes out to saving several hours annually for the EV owner.

What Zaxxon said. Hmmm, should I just add that to my signature?

I am not a road tripper personally. In three years, I have literally never waited for my car to charge. The only place I have plugged it in other than at home is at work (when it was free) and at the movie theater, mostly for the better parking but free electrons are cool too.

You tend not to think about how much time you spend at the gas station or thinking about gas until you don't have to think about it any more. My tank is always full. Hell, if I ever do road trip it may be a problem because I just never think about charging.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:21 amThis is part of the big infrastructure plans being worked out now, but whether we see enough investment to get us where we need to be, I guess we'll see. This Vox video is a good illustration of the inadequacy of the current situation, though.

We should have a P&R discussion about this - I can deep dive this. I was inside the power generation industry for several years. That video is a very good primer and I'm glad they mention that they want to target 345kV. What they didn't mention is that is brand-y new and several interconnect system operators including PJM told everyone to go to 230kV about a decade or so ago. And that is what our local utilities are *currently working* towards. So at least here in NJ but I suspect all over the place in PJM they are doing all that 3-10 year work right now. They are building out infrastructure right now that doesn't meet the current national target. Welcome to the wonderful world of the grid.

malchior wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:43 am

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:21 amThis is part of the big infrastructure plans being worked out now, but whether we see enough investment to get us where we need to be, I guess we'll see. This Vox video is a good illustration of the inadequacy of the current situation, though.

We should have a P&R discussion about this - I can deep dive this. I was inside the power generation industry for several years. That video is a very good primer and I'm glad they mention that they want to target 345kV. What they didn't mention is that is brand-y new and several interconnect system operators including PJM told everyone to go to 230kV about a decade or so ago. And that is what our local utilities are *currently working* towards. So at least here in NJ but I suspect all over the place in PJM they are doing all that 3-10 year work right now. They are building out infrastructure right now that doesn't meet the current national target. Welcome to the wonderful world of the grid.

Yes, I'd definitely be interested in more on this. I haven't looked deeply into this area (beyond 'the folks who know it are certain it's not an issue long-term' and 'but we're woefully under-invested at present so there will be some pain'). More insight is welcomed.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:40 pm MotorTrend took an R1T on a cross-country off-road trek.

Electrek also loves it.

I want a mini version of that for under $20,000 please. (and for someone come over and rewire my house for free)

LordMortis wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:23 am I want a mini version of that for under $20,000 please.

You can maybe get a Chevy Bolt pretty cheap right now.

coopasonic wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:23 am

LordMortis wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:23 am I want a mini version of that for under $20,000 please.

You can maybe get a Chevy Bolt pretty cheap right now.

Zing!

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:34 am

coopasonic wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:23 am

LordMortis wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:23 am I want a mini version of that for under $20,000 please.

You can maybe get a Chevy Bolt pretty cheap right now.

Zing!

I would suggest "Sick burn" but I am an old man and also too soon.

coopasonic wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:35 am

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:34 am

coopasonic wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:23 am

LordMortis wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:23 am I want a mini version of that for under $20,000 please.

You can maybe get a Chevy Bolt pretty cheap right now.

Zing!

I would suggest "Sick burn" but I am an old man and also too soon.

Much too soon.

You can get a decent in-town Leaf for less than half your goal amount, though, LM. I loved my Leaf.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:39 am You can get a decent in-town Leaf for less than half your goal amount, though, LM. I loved my Leaf.

MSRP: From $27,400

LordMortis wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:42 am

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:39 am You can get a decent in-town Leaf for less than half your goal amount, though, LM. I loved my Leaf.

MSRP: From $27,400

No, not a new one of course.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:16 am

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:40 pm MotorTrend took an R1T on a cross-country off-road trek.

Electrek also loves it.

The Verge also has a write-up.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:52 am

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:16 am

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:40 pm MotorTrend took an R1T on a cross-country off-road trek.

Electrek also loves it.

The Verge also has a write-up.

Why not Ars, too?

Ouch. 100-mile range. Only importing less than 600 cars. This is barely more than a paper product launch.

At least they're trying... *Coughtoyota*

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue Sep 21, 2021 11:21 am Not sure where best to put this; could have gone here or in the global warming thread, or in an infrstructure plan thread that I didn't find. Fits fine here, tho. Two of the things that come up often in discussions of electric vehicles are powering them cleanly and 'can the grid handle it?' An area that needs a lot of work in the US to aid in both these counts is high-power transmission line expansion and modernization.

This is part of the big infrastructure plans being worked out now, but whether we see enough investment to get us where we need to be, I guess we'll see. This Vox video is a good illustration of the inadequacy of the current situation, though.

Can I take this opportunity to be a shameless shill for Aptera again? Built-in solar panels FTW. I'm hopeful that with my ~17 mile commute I'll have to plug in almost never. Granted, it's a 2-seater, but for 99% of my driving, that's more than what I need. That Rivian does have me wishing I had $70k that I could just blow for fun, however.

I followed Aptera back in the early '00s before it went bankrupt. I haven't done any research - what is different this time?

coopasonic wrote: ↑Thu Sep 09, 2021 5:41 pm Compared to the amount of time you save by never going to the gas station ever again it shouldn't even be a contest.

5 minutes x 3 (the time taken in gas station visits) on a 1000 mile road trip is far less than 90 minutes, so yeah, not even a contest. But better than I thought it would be.

That equates to a 5 minute vs. 30 minute fuel stop every 333 miles. Now, if the electric fuel stop had a variety of restaurants, or things for the kids to do, then it might be tolerable. Sitting in the car waiting for a charge while going nowhere, not so much. I do think it's something that needs to be taken under consideration.

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 12:24 pm

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:52 am

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Tue Sep 28, 2021 11:16 am

Zaxxon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:40 pm MotorTrend took an R1T on a cross-country off-road trek.

Electrek also loves it.

The Verge also has a write-up.

Why not Ars, too?

MKBHD also likes it!

stessier wrote: ↑Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:39 am I followed Aptera back in the early '00s before it went bankrupt. I haven't done any research - what is different this time?

Everything and very little has changed. 2 of the founders are back, after having started other relatively successful companies. It looks very much the same, but with a bit of a styling and headlight update. This time it's an all-electric BEV, with built-in solar panels, getting you some amount of passive charging every day (depends on where you live, natch) and different available battery packs up to 1000miles. I got in early enough that I should be getting the 13th production vehicle (how lucky, 13?). If anyone here wants to reserve one, I do have a code somewhere that gets us both some amount of $$ off. More details at aptera.us and a metric ton of videos on the youtubes.

Lucid Air deliveries to begin this coming Saturday.

We started watching the final season of Goliath and there's a Lucid. Very sharp looking car.