Octopus Overlords

I'm curious if they'll be able to properly calculate it by then. One of my customers says they simply don't know answers as the parts networks are pretty wide flung and they need to analyze the guidance.*

To be clear, this discussion was a couple of weeks ago so perhaps they caught up in the middle but it sounded daunting at the time.

I expect cars with the credit NOW will have a surge in the next week or two.

malchior wrote: Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:18 pm I expect cars with the credit NOW will have a surge in the next week or two.

I think they would but, at least for the ones I'm looking at, there isn't inventory just sitting around.

GM just announced that starting in the 2024 model year, none of their TVs will support Android Auto or CarPlay. This is really upsetting. CarPlay is table stakes for any car purchase for me. Without it, I'd have to use Bluetooth to use the music, podcasts and other apps I want, and I'd have to (break the law and) pick up the phone constantly to skip chapters, pick a new podcast, etc.

Really stupid move.

Fireball wrote:GM just announced that starting in the 2024 model year, none of their TVs will support Android Auto or CarPlay. This is really upsetting. CarPlay is table stakes for any car purchase for me. Without it, I'd have to use Bluetooth to use the music, podcasts and other apps I want, and I'd have to (break the law and) pick up the phone constantly to skip chapters, pick a new podcast, etc.

Really stupid move.

I saw this same announcement and am also pretty surprised. The system they're going to include in every car is Google-based, so it will probably pretty much be Android Auto, but shutting out those who prefer CarPlay is a big move.

Personally, I think every manufacturer should just implement support for AA or CarPlay and call it a day. Is there really a need to spend money and effort building custom software that typically does a worse job than the big two? My 2018 Audi has probably has the highest quality built-in navigation of any car I've owned, but it's still far inferior to Android Auto and requires an expensive subscription to get the same features. I haven't used anything other than AA and the radio in my car for most of the five years I've owned it... switched to AA within a few months of having the option and never looked back.

I think we'll see other manufacturers go the same way unless Apple or Google change their strategy around BEVs. The manufacturers are trying to figure out how to provide a good end-to-end experience for BEVs and neither Apple or Google has done enough in their "stock" solutions to provide an extensible platform for the car manufacturers. They need to do things like integrate charging in a way that works for drivers. That means they'd have to open the platform potentially to allow the manufacturers enough control over the experience. My guess is GM saw the Google roadmap and decided they'd rather customize one for themselves than hope they'll get Android Auto to where they want it to be.

A car with a custom or Google-based interface is one that I cannot safely drive, because it won't support the applications I use for podcasts, for news audio stories, or, likely, for music, so I'll be constantly looking at my phone. The entire point of CarPlay is that the interface for my podcast, etc, apps, are safely and easily usable without distraction.

GM's position is that avoidable deaths are acceptable so long as they squeeze a few bucks out of suckers who will lower themselves to use their built in garbage software.

Carplay is not the only workable automotive interface for the masses.

Fireball wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:25 pm A car with a custom or Google-based interface is one that I cannot safely drive, because it won't support the applications I use for podcasts, for news audio stories, or, likely, for music, so I'll be constantly looking at my phone. The entire point of CarPlay is that the interface for my podcast, etc, apps, are safely and easily usable without distraction.

GM's position is that avoidable deaths are acceptable so long as they squeeze a few bucks out of suckers who will lower themselves to use their built in garbage software.

I would hazard a guess that the management of GM would figure that it would be the driver's fault, since a driver is supposed to be in control of the car.
I see a ridiculous amount of people driving with earbuds, so some people have gotten around garbage or no software.

The Meal wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:16 pm Carplay is not the only workable automotive interface for the masses.

+1.

Fireball wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:25 pm A car with a custom or Google-based interface is one that I cannot safely drive, because it won't support the applications I use for podcasts, for news audio stories, or, likely, for music, so I'll be constantly looking at my phone. The entire point of CarPlay is that the interface for my podcast, etc, apps, are safely and easily usable without distraction.

GM's position is that avoidable deaths are acceptable so long as they squeeze a few bucks out of suckers who will lower themselves to use their built in garbage software.

It's plenty easy to be distracted messing with CarPlay or Android Auto or any proprietary UI in a vehicle.

Default wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 6:02 pm

Fireball wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:25 pm A car with a custom or Google-based interface is one that I cannot safely drive, because it won't support the applications I use for podcasts, for news audio stories, or, likely, for music, so I'll be constantly looking at my phone. The entire point of CarPlay is that the interface for my podcast, etc, apps, are safely and easily usable without distraction.

GM's position is that avoidable deaths are acceptable so long as they squeeze a few bucks out of suckers who will lower themselves to use their built in garbage software.

I would hazard a guess that the management of GM would figure that it would be the driver's fault, since a driver is supposed to be in control of the car.

+1. They also are way more worried about their large-scale automotive strategy like being to navigate drivers to charging on trips (akin to Tesla).

What's with Electrify America not electrifying America? Behind even Rivian so far this year?

https://twitter.com/brandenflasch/statu ... w43CQ&s=19

The Meal wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:16 pm Carplay is not the only workable automotive interface for the masses.

It is for many parts of the masses. Why shouldn't I be able to use the podcast, music, etc, apps that I prefer in my car? If a car is going to make it difficult for me to use the apps I want without touching my phone while driving, why would I buy it?

Fireball wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 11:30 am

The Meal wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:16 pm Carplay is not the only workable automotive interface for the masses.

It is for many parts of the masses. Why shouldn't I be able to use the podcast, music, etc, apps that I prefer in my car? If a car is going to make it difficult for me to use the apps I want without touching my phone while driving, why would I buy it?

My carmaker’s proprietary software allows these things via its native controls — no Bluetooth required. The native OS replaces the phone apps I may desire.

I listen via Apple Music, FWIW.

Malchior speaks to Apple’s Project Titan future which may make traditional automakers nervous about the long term viability of CarPlay in their vehicles.

The Meal wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 12:52 pm

Fireball wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 11:30 am

The Meal wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 5:16 pm Carplay is not the only workable automotive interface for the masses.

It is for many parts of the masses. Why shouldn't I be able to use the podcast, music, etc, apps that I prefer in my car? If a car is going to make it difficult for me to use the apps I want without touching my phone while driving, why would I buy it?

My carmaker’s proprietary software allows these things via its native controls — no Bluetooth required. The native OS replaces the phone apps I may desire.

How do you use a third party podcast app with this software? How do you turn on app specific features? How do you skip to the next chapter? CarPlay ensures that every app works the way it is supposed to. It's table stakes for getting me to consider a car. I'd no more buy a car without CarPlay than I'd buy a TV that wouldn't work with my Apple TV box.

Fireball wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:25 pm GM's position is that avoidable deaths are acceptable so long as they squeeze a few bucks out of suckers who will lower themselves to use their built in garbage software.

I think GM has a longer term vision than this.

The Meal wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 2:17 pm

Fireball wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:25 pm GM's position is that avoidable deaths are acceptable so long as they squeeze a few bucks out of suckers who will lower themselves to use their built in garbage software.

I think GM has a longer term vision than this.

They even stated that this nonsense consumer-hostile system will be "free for 8 years," so they've clearly got a desire to create subscription revenue. "Buy a GM and pay for stuff that you used to be able to do for free, only without access to any of the apps you prefer to use."

Road and Track

"We have a lot of new driver assistance features coming that are more tightly coupled with navigation," Mike Hichme, GM's director of digital cockpit experience, told Reuters. "We don’t want to design these features in a way that are dependent on person having a cellphone."

There's also the service fee aspect of it all.

"We do believe there are subscription revenue opportunities for us," chief digital officer Edward Kummer told Reuters. The company plans to rake in over $20 billion in subscription revenue annually by 2030.

GM will continue to offer Apple CarPlay and Android Auto on its gas-powered models, says Reuters. But the company plans to stop selling ICE cars by 2035.

Zaxxon wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 10:31 pm What's with Electrify America not electrifying America? Behind even Rivian so far this year?

It's almost like they are doing the minimum to satisfy a legal agreement.

malchior wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 4:48 pm

Zaxxon wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 10:31 pm What's with Electrify America not electrifying America? Behind even Rivian so far this year?

It's almost like they are doing the minimum to satisfy a legal agreement.

You don't say. And here I was worried about appearing like a tinfoil hat-wearing weirdo.

The batshit thing is there is money to be made and credits to be claimed. EVgo had a similar start to EA. It took an ownership change for EVgo to want to go out and try to seize market share. Maybe something similar needs to happen with EA.

Final list of which vehicles qualify for which incentives.

The full list of vehicles that qualify for the $7,500 clean vehicle tax credit is:

• Cadillac Lyriq
• Chevrolet Bolt
• Chevrolet Bolt EUV
• Chevrolet Silverado EV
• Chevrolet Equinox EV
• Chrysler Pacifica PHEV
• Ford F-150 Lightning
• Lincoln Aviator Grand Touring PHEV
• Tesla Model 3 Performance
• Tesla Model Y

Seven other plug-in vehicles are eligible for $3,750 of the tax credit, as they satisfy half of the domestic battery requirements. These models are:

• Ford Escape PHEV
• Ford E-Transit
• Ford Mustang Mach-E
• Jeep Wrangler 4xe
• Jeep Grand Cherokee 4xe
• Lincoln Corsair Grand Touring PHEV
• Tesla Model 3 Standard Range

But honey I *have* to get the performance to get the Tax Credit!

Fireball wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:25 pm A car with a custom or Google-based interface is one that I cannot safely drive, because it won't support the applications I use for podcasts, for news audio stories, or, likely, for music, so I'll be constantly looking at my phone. The entire point of CarPlay is that the interface for my podcast, etc, apps, are safely and easily usable without distraction.

GM's position is that avoidable deaths are acceptable so long as they squeeze a few bucks out of suckers who will lower themselves to use their built in garbage software.

I know others have responded with similar comments but WTF? You really rate your media consumption experience higher than safe driving?

I hate messing with media in the car. Tapes, CDs, changing radio stations, changing podcasts, or whatever. I like having something playing but I don't want to do anything with it other than maybe volume. I still like the radio in my car because if I get a decent station it simply does its thing. Audiobooks generally keep going so I like them. I have a couple of multiple day long playlists that I use for driving.

Madmarcus wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 7:04 am

Fireball wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 4:25 pm A car with a custom or Google-based interface is one that I cannot safely drive, because it won't support the applications I use for podcasts, for news audio stories, or, likely, for music, so I'll be constantly looking at my phone. The entire point of CarPlay is that the interface for my podcast, etc, apps, are safely and easily usable without distraction.

GM's position is that avoidable deaths are acceptable so long as they squeeze a few bucks out of suckers who will lower themselves to use their built in garbage software.

I know others have responded with similar comments but WTF? You really rate your media consumption experience higher than safe driving?

I hate messing with media in the car. Tapes, CDs, changing radio stations, changing podcasts, or whatever. I like having something playing but I don't want to do anything with it other than maybe volume. I still like the radio in my car because if I get a decent station it simply does its thing. Audiobooks generally keep going so I like them. I have a couple of multiple day long playlists that I use for driving.

I'm not sure how you got that from his comment. He knows his applications and isn't a hazard when he is using them. The GM solution wouldn't prevent podcasts, audio books, etc - it would just force everyone into their ecosystem...something Fireball is unwilling to do. The way you interact with your media is definitely an edge case when considered against the broader public.

stessier wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:34 am The GM solution wouldn't prevent podcasts, audio books, etc - it would just force everyone into their ecosystem...something Fireball is unwilling to do.

I'm not wildly happy about forcing people into one specific ecosystem either. However I'm rather surprised that someone would consider their ability to use their desired media ecosystem in their specific way as important enough to be a make or break feature in a car.

Madmarcus wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 10:38 am

stessier wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:34 am The GM solution wouldn't prevent podcasts, audio books, etc - it would just force everyone into their ecosystem...something Fireball is unwilling to do.

I'm not wildly happy about forcing people into one specific ecosystem either. However I'm rather surprised that someone would consider their ability to use their desired media ecosystem in their specific way as important enough to be a make or break feature in a car.

That I agree with. Your comparison of the interface and safe driving is what I didn't understand.

stessier wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 10:40 am

Madmarcus wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 10:38 am

stessier wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:34 am The GM solution wouldn't prevent podcasts, audio books, etc - it would just force everyone into their ecosystem...something Fireball is unwilling to do.

I'm not wildly happy about forcing people into one specific ecosystem either. However I'm rather surprised that someone would consider their ability to use their desired media ecosystem in their specific way as important enough to be a make or break feature in a car.

That I agree with. Your comparison of the interface and safe driving is what I didn't understand.

As I said earlier in the thread, it's plenty easy to be distracted messing with CarPlay or Android Auto or any proprietary UI in a vehicle.

stessier wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 10:40 am That I agree with. Your comparison of the interface and safe driving is what I didn't understand.

Probably poor phrasing on my part.

Fireball equated not having his preferred media interface with unsafe driving as if not having CarPlay would force him to be unsafe. Yet it would only "force" him to be unsafe if he chose to be unsafe by interacting with his phone in an unsafe manner. That doesn't make any sense to me. If you are in a car without CarPlay or whatever your preferred interface is it only makes sense to drive safely and put up with the existing interface. Choosing, or saying you would so choose, to be unsafe merely for the sake of greater control over your media is crazy talk to me.

Madmarcus wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 11:20 am

stessier wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 10:40 am That I agree with. Your comparison of the interface and safe driving is what I didn't understand.

Probably poor phrasing on my part.

Fireball equated not having his preferred media interface with unsafe driving as if not having CarPlay would force him to be unsafe. Yet it would only "force" him to be unsafe if he chose to be unsafe by interacting with his phone in an unsafe manner. That doesn't make any sense to me. If you are in a car without CarPlay or whatever your preferred interface is it only makes sense to drive safely and put up with the existing interface. Choosing, or saying you would so choose, to be unsafe merely for the sake of greater control over your media is crazy talk to me.

I think the best way to look at is that you have 3 options.

1) Safely interact with media while driving
2) Unsafely interact with media while driving
3) Don't interact with media while driving

Fireball prefers option 1 over either 2 or 3, so he's going to make his selection based on having 1 available. The order of 2 and 3 are immaterial since he's not going to choose either one of those.

The only time it's truly "safe" to interact with media while driving is when you're stopped, though. I've gotten distracted trying to find music in Android Auto, whether I'm looking at the screen or trying to use voice commands.

I like that in the Mazda they have a dial instead of using the Touch screen. If I were shopping for a car now I would totally be looking at a Mazda as it's old school and doesn't have 17 inch freaking screens of doom.

If you don't have someone riding shotgun and absolutely must significantly adjust nav or music while the vehicle is in motion...

*whisper* Voice control is the answer */whisper*

Zaxxon wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:12 pm If you don't have someone riding shotgun and absolutely must significantly adjust nav or music while the vehicle is in motion...

*whisper* Voice control is the answer */whisper*

Still can be distracting!

pr0ner wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:38 pm

Zaxxon wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:12 pm If you don't have someone riding shotgun and absolutely must significantly adjust nav or music while the vehicle is in motion...

*whisper* Voice control is the answer */whisper*

Still can be distracting!

I definitely find it distracting when people are giving me commands while I'm driving...

pr0ner wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 5:38 pm

Zaxxon wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 2:12 pm If you don't have someone riding shotgun and absolutely must significantly adjust nav or music while the vehicle is in motion...

*whisper* Voice control is the answer */whisper*

Still can be distracting!

Sure, just as listening to music or having navigation going can be.

Madmarcus wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 10:38 am

stessier wrote: Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:34 am The GM solution wouldn't prevent podcasts, audio books, etc - it would just force everyone into their ecosystem...something Fireball is unwilling to do.

I'm not wildly happy about forcing people into one specific ecosystem either. However I'm rather surprised that someone would consider their ability to use their desired media ecosystem in their specific way as important enough to be a make or break feature in a car.

I have seen enough horribly crappy car infotainment systems that I am much happier with Android Auto or Carplay being available. The car electronics are definitely something that weighs highly when I'm making a purchasing decision.

People weigh the convenience features for sure but it isn't close to the top for most people where vehicle type, price, and safety reign supreme. But more relevant to the BEV thread, the manufacturers need to integrate nav/charging into their ecosystem to overcome range anxiety concerns and increase usability. That's almost certainly the factor driving this and it 100% makes sense for them to focus on that.

That is how they are selling it. That is not why they are doing it. They want to keep all your data for themselves.

stessier wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 8:48 am That is how they are selling it. That is not why they are doing it. They want to keep all your data for themselves.

I think it is probably the opposite. That is instead why Apple and Google weren't playing ball. They wanted all the data since that is their primary business. Selling cars is the manufacturers main business. That puts ease of use higher in the priority list and is almost certainly why the manufacturers are doing it. Data acquisition is definitely in there -- that is a basic business strategy nowadays -- but they need to sell the cars and if you can't find charging while driving people won't buy them. This is a pretty straightforward strategic play. They need to expand beyond a niche audience while addressing basic concerns that many consumers express regularly as net negatives around EVs.