Octopus Overlords

I've seen enough. CCS is dead in the United States. It'll still exist in pockets out there but 10 years from now 95+% of plugs will be NACS.

Concur. This is the situation *before* Ford/GM signed on:

I should caveat that the US government is distorting this a bit because the current policy position is that CCS is mandatory with dual CCS/NACS allowed for tax credits. All subject to change but it may be inefficient cost-wise for awhile for charging network operators.

malchior wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:57 pm I should caveat that the US government is distorting this a bit because the current policy position is that CCS is mandatory with dual CCS/NACS allowed for tax credits. All subject to change but it may be inefficient cost-wise for awhile for charging network operators.

Yeah, will be interesting to see how long that lasts.

Keep em coming.

Ford with more BEV capacity in Europe.

Think it's time to call it. The days of DCFC units[in the US] without at least including NACS are soon to be over.

ChargePoint is in, too.

The plug really doesn't matter to me. Speed and reliability are what I look for. As long as the change drives competition to improve those, I'm on board with it.

stessier wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 12:07 pm The plug really doesn't matter to me. Speed and reliability are what I look for. As long as the change drives competition to improve those, I'm on board with it.

CharIN seems to have seen reality as well. The article has some good insights such as perhaps triangulation as a put up or shut up moment for Tesla to truly open up the standard.

The Charging Interface Initiative (CharIN) association, which stands behind the CCS (CCS1 and CCS2) as well as MCS charging standards for EVs, issued an interesting response acknowledging that some of its members are interested in adopting the North America Charging Standard (NACS).

Let's recall that NACS is Tesla's proprietary solution, which is promised to be opened for the EV industry in North America to become the ultimate charging connector for cars (AC and DC charging). In a matter of about two weeks, Ford and General Motors announced their switch from CCS1 to NACS in North America (starting with next-gen vehicles in 2025), which initially annoyed CharIN.

We were recently wondering which manufacturers might be next to adopt the NACS because the Tesla-Ford-GM trio is expected to hold the majority of the market of all-electric cars. CCS1 would then gradually lose its steam.

..

The most important thing is that CharIn said that it "will work to convene an open task force to align requirements to submit NACS to the standardization process."

The group invites members and further involved parties to join the task force and even prepared a form to apply.

That's a very interesting outcome because the standardization of NACS and its adoption by other manufacturers means that the CCS1 will be phased out in North America (probably in some other markets where it's also used).

ChargePoint definitely feels like the tipping point. That's equally as huge as the big automakers.

The Meal wrote: Mon Jun 12, 2023 8:45 pm ChargePoint definitely feels like the tipping point. That's equally as huge as the big automakers.

It will be interesting to see Tesla's response to the CharIN invitation. On the one hand, if you want it to be a standard, you need some standard-making. On the other, CharIN's history is one part of why these NACS announcements are happening.

As long as they go 800 volt, I'm okay with it.

Today's news: Volvo is also moving to NACS, and SAE is going to assist with standardization.

Zero percent surprising after Volvo, but Polestar is now also switching.

I'm not sure I can afford one of these.

First, they are tiny, and I have 5 family members, 3 of which are large men (some larger than others ). On the plus side we are almost never all in it at the same time. Counter: We just had all 5 in the van last weekend. My wife is skeptical about head room in the back, but obviously we just need to sit in it and find out.

Second, there is a price premium on them. Yes, I know this is the cost of new technology etc, but see the first point. I'm paying more for less car.

Third, supply seems incredibly short. Even if I could find a car that works for us and I can afford the price, how long do I need to wait?

Fourth, do I need new infrastructure to charge at home? I believe someone mentioned that some cars can charge from a standard plug now. Is that correct?

There is so much I don't know that I am finding it daunting just to learn everything I need to know to make an informed choice.

I'm frustrated/defeated.

GreenGoo wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 11:23 am I'm not sure I can afford one of these.

First, they are tiny, and I have 5 family members, 3 of which are large men (some larger than others ). On the plus side we are almost never all in it at the same time. Counter: We just had all 5 in the van last weekend. My wife is skeptical about head room in the back, but obviously we just need to sit in it and find out.

Second, there is a price premium on them. Yes, I know this is the cost of new technology etc, but see the first point. I'm paying more for less car.

Third, supply seems incredibly short. Even if I could find a car that works for us and I can afford the price, how long do I need to wait?

Fourth, do I need new infrastructure to charge at home? I believe someone mentioned that some cars can charge from a standard plug now. Is that correct?

There is so much I don't know that I am finding it daunting just to learn everything I need to know to make an informed choice.

I'm frustrated/defeated.

FWIW, I went with a Volvo S60 plug-in hybrid (PHEV). I got in just before the electric upgrade that gives it ~45 miles on a charge, so I'm at ~23. It's a mid-size sedan, so while it seats 4 comfortably (although the person behind me better have short legs since I'm 6'4"), 5 adult sized people would be a challenge. There was definitely a premium, but how much of that was the electric vs. me being financially imprudent and having to get all the bells and whistles is up in the air (I did get a nice tax rebate, but I don't know whether that would still apply in the US and I'm completely ignorant to the Canadian rules around that ). Because it's a PHEV, I just plug it into a regular outlet for charging - no special infrastructure needed. It's a slow charge, but it fits my driving habits and I've always got the gas engine to fall back on if it doesn't fully recharge. I do have an alternate plug that would fit a high speed charger of some sort, but it's still wrapped in plastic and I don't know what specifically it would fit into.

For charging, it's technically possible to charge from a normal 110 outlet if you only drive a very small amount. Realistically, you are going to want a 220v outlet, preferably a 50a circuit. Many new houses are coming with that pre-wired, but most older homes are going to need some new wiring. It cost me about $500 to get the plug dropped in my garage and wired to the panel.

Secondly, they aren't all tiny. The Ford Lightning is essentially an all electric F150. It can easily seat 5 big ass people. It is not cheap, though, so that doesn't alleviate the affordability angle.

GreenGoo wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 11:23 am I'm not sure I can afford one of these.

First, they are tiny, and I have 5 family members, 3 of which are large men (some larger than others ). On the plus side we are almost never all in it at the same time. Counter: We just had all 5 in the van last weekend. My wife is skeptical about head room in the back, but obviously we just need to sit in it and find out.

Second, there is a price premium on them. Yes, I know this is the cost of new technology etc, but see the first point. I'm paying more for less car.

Third, supply seems incredibly short. Even if I could find a car that works for us and I can afford the price, how long do I need to wait?

Fourth, do I need new infrastructure to charge at home? I believe someone mentioned that some cars can charge from a standard plug now. Is that correct?

There is so much I don't know that I am finding it daunting just to learn everything I need to know to make an informed choice.

I'm frustrated/defeated.

Affordability will certainly depend on model and local incentives. Less car will be an individual thing. You are certainly getting more tech with a lot of these than you would in an ICE car, and I'm not just talking the powertrain.

Space isn't an issue--as others mentioned, we're no longer in the Nissan Leaf-or-Bust era. There's a wide range, and even a Model Y or Mustang Mach-e will fit 5 adults.

Waiting is an issue with some manufacturers, less so with others. I know Ford has drastically increased production of the Mach-e and Lightning, and Tesla is lapping everyone on production and has no wait for most configs in most places these days. With smaller manufacturers, it's certainly still a problem.

Re: home charging, it depends. With a small-ish BEV (eg Model 3/Y, Mach-e, Bolt), you'll get 50-70 miles of range back per night on a standard outlet. The only infrastructure issue there would be to ensure the circuit is largely free (eg you don't have a garage fridge/freezer on the same circuit) as the car will not do well with anything more than lights and the door opener on the same circuit.

If you do upgrade to a 240V circuit, you'll be able to charge just about anything fully overnight. Cost on that upgrade will vary widely--if your electrical panel is near the garage, has open breaker space, and wiring can run from it to your charge location easily, it could be $500 or so plus the cost of the charger (another $400-$600). If your panel is full, it's hundreds of feet from the panel to the garage, etc, it could be a couple grand. This is another area where you should check local incentives. For example, here in CO, the power company will pay $500 for a charger install, plus discount the equipment itself (or let you rent it for $13/mo with a lifetime warranty).

Thanks guys. I have my hands full at the moment but I will certainly read your posts in more detail and follow up later.

malchior wrote: Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:45 pm I've seen enough. CCS is dead in the United States. It'll still exist in pockets out there but 10 years from now 95+% of plugs will be NACS.

It should be noted that the plug is dead but the standard lives on in the communication protocol that they will all be using.

GreenGoo wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 11:23 am I'm not sure I can afford one of these.

First, they are tiny, and I have 5 family members, 3 of which are large men (some larger than others ). On the plus side we are almost never all in it at the same time. Counter: We just had all 5 in the van last weekend. My wife is skeptical about head room in the back, but obviously we just need to sit in it and find out.

Second, there is a price premium on them. Yes, I know this is the cost of new technology etc, but see the first point. I'm paying more for less car.

Third, supply seems incredibly short. Even if I could find a car that works for us and I can afford the price, how long do I need to wait?

Fourth, do I need new infrastructure to charge at home? I believe someone mentioned that some cars can charge from a standard plug now. Is that correct?

There is so much I don't know that I am finding it daunting just to learn everything I need to know to make an informed choice.

I'm frustrated/defeated.

I like this channel and this might be a good place for you to start if you don't mind watching for your info (I like 1.75x speed).

gbasden wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 11:32 am For charging, it's technically possible to charge from a normal 110 outlet if you only drive a very small amount. Realistically, you are going to want a 220v outlet, preferably a 50a circuit. Many new houses are coming with that pre-wired, but most older homes are going to need some new wiring. It cost me about $500 to get the plug dropped in my garage and wired to the panel.

Secondly, they aren't all tiny. The Ford Lightning is essentially an all electric F150. It can easily seat 5 big ass people. It is not cheap, though, so that doesn't alleviate the affordability angle.

For a BEV, I would say a 60amp (48amp sustained) circuit is the sweet spot for a home install. Even the Bolt comes with a 11.5kW charger that can take advantage of this. Unless you are looking at trucks - the Lightening can pull 80amps (100 amp install needed).

stessier wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 2:08 pm It should be noted that the plug is dead but the standard lives on in the communication protocol that they will all be using.

Yessir. And for me, at least, the plug itself is most of the problem. Good riddance on that.

To your point, one aspect of this that a lot of Tesla owners don't seem to have grokked yet is that older Teslas (before they started shipping with CCS compatibility in the charge port ECU, which I believe was sometime in late 2020) will *not* be able to charge at CCS stations equipped with NACS plugs until they have the communication retrofit completed.

stessier wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 2:10 pm I like this channel and this might be a good place for you to start if you don't mind watching for your info (I like 1.75x speed).

That will definitely help, thank you!

GreenGoo wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 4:10 pm

stessier wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2023 2:10 pm I like this channel and this might be a good place for you to start if you don't mind watching for your info (I like 1.75x speed).

That will definitely help, thank you!

Please note that the plug shown in the thumbnail is going the way of the dodo (and has been the subject of most of Zaxxon's recent posts ).

I'm feeling significant pressure to act as our ice van is failing and we only have 1 car. Unfortunately our needs are in transition as 1 kid is in college and another will be in 2 years. Both will likely be out of the house in 3 or 4 (or maybe sooner, hopefully not later ).

I am seriously considering a lease to get us through the transition period, then re-evaluate in 2 years.

I will start doing my homework in earnest this weekend. God, it's daunting.

GreenGoo wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:10 amI will start doing my homework in earnest this weekend. God, it's daunting.

You mis-spelled 'incredibly fun.'

No? Just me nerding out on this stuff?

Zaxxon wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:27 am

GreenGoo wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:10 amI will start doing my homework in earnest this weekend. God, it's daunting.

You mis-spelled 'incredibly fun.'

No? Just me nerding out on this stuff?

Hah. I understand your point. The problem is I'm not ready to do this but it has been forced upon me. Thus it is work. At the end I'm sure I'll describe the new car as incredibly fun.

GreenGoo wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:32 am

Zaxxon wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:27 am

GreenGoo wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 9:10 amI will start doing my homework in earnest this weekend. God, it's daunting.

You mis-spelled 'incredibly fun.'

No? Just me nerding out on this stuff?

Hah. I understand your point. The problem is I'm not ready to do this but it has been forced upon me. Thus it is work.

Yeah, I can see that.

The other thing is cost (which applies to any new car) and I am pathologically adverse to spending money, and it has gotten worse as I've aged.

Particularly large outlays. So I have my own psychology working against me.

None of which is going to prevent me from getting a new (or used) car. I just have to decide which one. The cost of EVs are working (hard. See pathology) against me.

One bright side you may be able to use on yourself is that (despite the bogus headlines you may see) a BEV is going to cost far less to own once you've bought it, and will likely last a very long time. May be the last car you need to buy.

Won't need oil changes. Won't need new brakes for many years. Battery will lose a bit of range in the first years but will then largely stabilize. Much cheaper to fuel. Etc. Just make sure you're focusing on lifetime cost, not up-front cost.

Oh absolutely, and those are great arguments that I would fully embrace.

Some things that are dampening those are that I may move off the continent in a few years (possibly 5, but also possibly sooner) so the lifetime usage for me is going to be shorter, and this is just a particularly bad time for upfront costs. Bad luck on my part. Well, bad management on my part.

But those won't keep me from buying a car. They are just negative pressures.

I do fully want to embrace electric cars. I'm trying to do so. Doesn't help that my wife can look out our front window and see a neighbourhood with what appears to be zero EVs. She doesn't understand the transition and pressures that are coming, because it hasn't happened yet to our neighbours.

Plus she wants a big car for various reasons.

If I was buying a car just for me I'd buy something small to run around it, but this is going to be the family plough horse. I refuse to buy two cars. We just don't have any use for a second car.

Being politically opposed to putting money in that asshat's pockets is also limiting options. Why couldn't he just be a prick behind the scenes, like every other billionaire? I mean seriously, shut up douchebag.

GreenGoo wrote: Fri Jun 30, 2023 10:25 amBeing politically opposed to putting money in that asshat's pockets is also limiting options. Why couldn't he just be a prick behind the scenes, like every other billionaire? I mean seriously, shut up douchebag.

Seconded.

If you're wanting to go BEV but also can't justify the cost / want unlimited range and are OK still funneling $$ to those other prick billionaires by purchasing gasoline for the next bunch of years, you could consider a PHEV.

I don't know the abbreviations, but I assume that's a hybrid. It's not off the table, that's for sure. Nothing is, really, although ideally it would be an mid-sized EV. That's what I want. Wife wants something bigger (possible SUV. I've opposed SUVs for 20 years).

If I can't afford it, I'll need to find something else. Don't know what that would be yet.

I want (would like) a 100% electric family car, for less than $60K Canadian. As less than as possible. While still maintaining a good reputation on reliability and other review worthy qualities. I don't have an preference for gizmos or gadgets, but my last car was over a decade ago, so I suspect I'm getting new toys regardless of my preference. Things that are standard now, like rear facing camera and screen seems to be standard. Yes, I'm behind on car tech.

$60K isn't a hard limit, but it's a hurdle I would prefer not to pass.

Keep in mind that I haven't actually started looking yet, except for glancing at used EVs in autotrader. Briefly.

You think that's bad. I hear ICE engines are powered by literal explosions. Thousands per minute! I hope there aren't any videos of those engines bursting into flames!

Need help? No, I'm fine. (edit: This is from the video, a car drives by and asks if he needs help. He responds with "No, I'm fine" while his bike is literally on fire)

Oh for the days of steam powered cars.