Octopus Overlords

ImLawBoy wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 8:57 am FWIW, you shouldn't need a home charger for a PHEV. I just plug mine into a regular outlet in the garage. It's a slow charge, but you're also not charging up a fully electric vehicle.

Oh that's the plan for me ATM anyway. I'm talking a general use case. My electric is already known to be too shoddy and under powered for a full EV and I'm not willing to do the diligence/expenditure to redo everything so I can charge and EV at home. I also do very little driving in excess of 30 mile round trip in a day. Like currently making that drive once a month would be heavy long distance driving month for me.

Zaxxon wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 8:17 am FWIW, they’re both kicking Honda’s ass, tech and awards wise, these days.

Thanks. More of that, please!

2023 Hyundai Tucson: 38.7 cu. ft. | $26,450| Overall Score: 8.5/10 - "In terms of cargo capacity, the Tucson offers 38.7 cubes behind the rear seats and 74.8 cubic feet with them folded down."
2023 Honda CR-V: 39.3 cu. ft. | $28,410 | Overall Score: 8.4/10 - "Cargo volume is just as plentiful, with 39.3 cubic feet of space behind the second row and 76.5 cubic feet behind the first." *Note: This is apparently an increase over the 2022 model.
2023 Kia Sportage: 39.6 cu. ft. | $25,990 | Overall Score: 8.1/10 - "With all seats in use, its 39.6 cubic feet of cargo room can swallow all your belongings with space to spare. Lowering the rear seats increases the cargo area to a humongous 74.1 cubes."

Space is comparable. Maybe you can point out the savings and how it could be used for something else?

LordMortis wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 8:43 am Power outages around here are endemic in the last five years or so, as are gas generator backups as a reaction.

Yeah, that's why I asked.

For some people, a power outage = "we had no power"
For others, a power outage = "we switched over to the generator"

TheMix wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 9:38 am 2023 Hyundai Tucson: 38.7 cu. ft. | $26,450| Overall Score: 8.5/10 - "In terms of cargo capacity, the Tucson offers 38.7 cubes behind the rear seats and 74.8 cubic feet with them folded down."
2023 Honda CR-V: 39.3 cu. ft. | $28,410 | Overall Score: 8.4/10 - "Cargo volume is just as plentiful, with 39.3 cubic feet of space behind the second row and 76.5 cubic feet behind the first." *Note: This is apparently an increase over the 2022 model.
2023 Kia Sportage: 39.6 cu. ft. | $25,990 | Overall Score: 8.1/10 - "With all seats in use, its 39.6 cubic feet of cargo room can swallow all your belongings with space to spare. Lowering the rear seats increases the cargo area to a humongous 74.1 cubes."

Space is comparable. Maybe you can point out the savings and how it could be used for something else?

Link please. I find it hard to find objective, meaningful comparisons in terms of overall quality. Yes, I can see the prices and cargo space and AER etc, but I want know that the quality of materials, design, build and wear and tear etc are all within normal ranges for the industry. And if anything is superior to their competitors, even better.

I've learned I don't want touch screen controls, because that's bad in a car. Is that correct?

Also

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:43 am I said good, because Kia and Hyundai both offer PHEVs with similar interior space

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 2:22 pm I've learned I don't want touch screen controls, because that's bad in a car. Is that correct?

If you're the type that feels that way, then yes. If you're not, then no. Many cars have mostly or virtually all touchscreen controls these days (outside of steering wheel controls).

Zaxxon wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 2:34 pm If you're the type that feels that way, then yes. If you're not, then no. Many cars have mostly or virtually all touchscreen controls these days (outside of steering wheel controls).

This is a common criticism and concern by many apparently. I'm just going by what I read.

I don't have any feelings one way or another, as I've never had a car with only (or any, actually. My current car is 17 years old) touch screen controls. I can *imagine* it would be a pain, but I have no idea what it would actually be like.

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 2:50 pm

Zaxxon wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 2:34 pm If you're the type that feels that way, then yes. If you're not, then no. Many cars have mostly or virtually all touchscreen controls these days (outside of steering wheel controls).

This is a common criticism and concern by many apparently. I'm just going by what I read.

I don't have any feelings one way or another, as I've never had a car with only (or any, actually. My current car is 17 years old) touch screen controls. I can *imagine* it would be a pain, but I have no idea what it would actually be like.

To a degree, taking your eyes off the road is dangerous. Most cars with primarily touch controls also have decent voice commands. Most also have some level of tactile controls on the steering wheel. I don't want to say it's just people being resistant to change as there is some sensibility to it, but I think it is taken too far.

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 2:50 pm

Zaxxon wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 2:34 pm If you're the type that feels that way, then yes. If you're not, then no. Many cars have mostly or virtually all touchscreen controls these days (outside of steering wheel controls).

This is a common criticism and concern by many apparently. I'm just going by what I read.

I don't have any feelings one way or another, as I've never had a car with only (or any, actually. My current car is 17 years old) touch screen controls. I can *imagine* it would be a pain, but I have no idea what it would actually be like.

The best perspective I can give is that my daily driver is about the most touchscreen-centric of any car (a Model 3), and I can see how some people would dislike the on-screen controls. But for me, it's awesome. Because I RTFM and can do all the things I generally need to do while driving from the steering wheel (90% of them) and via voice (10%). Change volume, call up a playlist/song, change HVAC temp, call someone, enable/disable TACC or Autopilot, etc.

So while I empathize with the concept that using a physical button that's always in the same spot and is differentiable in a tactile way is a good thing, I also don't see the issue with a well-designed touchscreen interface. It's not like I'm reaching over all the time and looking at the screen in order to accomplish basic tasks while driving. It's definitely a conceptual change at first, though, and if I didn't put in the effort to learn the steering wheel controls and voice commands, I might like it a lot less.

Touchscreen controls are not inherently bad. Bad UI layouts - even with tactile buttons - will make any car annoying. My cars have a mixture. The Mach E has gotten software updates that make the screen experience vastly improved (it's like the person doing the design had actually tried driving the car!). Can't do that if you hate the tactile button layout.

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 2:22 pm

TheMix wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 9:38 am 2023 Hyundai Tucson: 38.7 cu. ft. | $26,450| Overall Score: 8.5/10 - "In terms of cargo capacity, the Tucson offers 38.7 cubes behind the rear seats and 74.8 cubic feet with them folded down."
2023 Honda CR-V: 39.3 cu. ft. | $28,410 | Overall Score: 8.4/10 - "Cargo volume is just as plentiful, with 39.3 cubic feet of space behind the second row and 76.5 cubic feet behind the first." *Note: This is apparently an increase over the 2022 model.
2023 Kia Sportage: 39.6 cu. ft. | $25,990 | Overall Score: 8.1/10 - "With all seats in use, its 39.6 cubic feet of cargo room can swallow all your belongings with space to spare. Lowering the rear seats increases the cargo area to a humongous 74.1 cubes."

Space is comparable. Maybe you can point out the savings and how it could be used for something else?

Link please. I find it hard to find objective, meaningful comparisons in terms of overall quality. Yes, I can see the prices and cargo space and AER etc, but I want know that the quality of materials, design, build and wear and tear etc are all within normal ranges for the industry. And if anything is superior to their competitors, even better.

I've learned I don't want touch screen controls, because that's bad in a car. Is that correct?

Also

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 7:43 am I said good, because Kia and Hyundai both offer PHEVs with similar interior space

Actually taken from 2 different articles. I will say that when I did my research several months ago, the CRV was not as high on the list. The 2023 version picked up some more space. So when I originally grabbed the links I expected to tell you that the Hyundai and Kia offered a lot more space.
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/adv ... argo-space
https://www.hotcars.com/best-compact-su ... -for-2023/

Also, for my personal research I've been sticking with the smaller compact SUVs. I can't recall if that is a concern.

I was actually looking for an article that listed the space in number of carry-on luggage bags. But I can't find it now (Edit: Found it. But it's for 2022). I did find this one, but haven't read it yet; I need to though. It looks pretty thorough at first glance.

coopasonic wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 2:55 pm To a degree, taking your eyes off the road is dangerous. Most cars with primarily touch controls also have decent voice commands. Most also have some level of tactile controls on the steering wheel. I don't want to say it's just people being resistant to change as there is some sensibility to it, but I think it is taken too far.

Thanks coop. I'll look into voice commands and steer wheel controls. Plenty of those on my 2007 Odyssey

TheMix wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 3:08 pm Actually taken from 2 different articles. I will say that when I did my research several months ago, the CRV was not as high on the list. The 2023 version picked up some more space. So when I originally grabbed the links I expected to tell you that the Hyundai and Kia offered a lot more space.
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/adv ... argo-space
https://www.hotcars.com/best-compact-su ... -for-2023/

Also, for my personal research I've been sticking with the smaller compact SUVs. I can't recall if that is a concern.

I was actually looking for an article that listed the space in number of carry-on luggage bags. But I can't find it now (Edit: Found it. But it's for 2022). I did find this one, but haven't read it yet; I need to though. It looks pretty thorough at first glance.

I need something slightly larger than a compact SUV. How much larger? I'm not sure. How do you measure size in emotional response?

There is context here that is not completely clear.

We have an affinity for Honda because we got more than a decade out of each of our last 2 Hondas with zero issues. I mean it, nothing until long after warranty expired, and barely anything (brakes and such) after, until the last few years. We've been happy with it.

My wife thinks EV is too far, but I can convince her that PHEV is acceptable. Or I will just buy it without convincing her and live with the reaction. I think the reaction to EV would not be liveable. Does that make sense? The "problems" with a PHEV are less than the "problems" of an EV. "problems" in this case are my wife's negative emotional reaction.

Honda doesn't have a PHEV CRV this year. I think maybe next? Or maybe not until 2025. Not sure. Hybrid only. That's not good enough for a few reasons, but the most convincing that I can use on my wife is no government rebate on hybrids, only PHEVs.

We actually sat in a hybrid CRV, so we have more than numbers to go on. We have how it felt, which is just as (well, almost) important. My wife has said that she finds the CRV interior "acceptable". I used that and the numbers comparison to suggest that she would also find the Kia and Hyundai interior space acceptable. She seemed displeased, like I had tricked her or something.

I have no intention of buying a Honda, because I can't get an EV or PHEV from them in my price range (which is as low as I can spend for the most car I can get).

In the end, I would like to buy something affordable but well rated, especially in regarding the EV portion of PHEV. The RAV 4 seems like a decent if not exceptional PHEV.

I'll be taking a serious look at the larger of the Kia and Hyundai crossover PHEVs. I don't recall their names at the moment. Tuscon, etc.

it's going to take all my willpower to pull the trigger on a Kia or Hyundai. I've been prejudiced against them for decades, starting in the late 80's (for Hyundai anyway). My prejudices seem to be misplaced in 2023. That's good. Now to convince myself it's true.

You might want to take a look at the last link I posted. He has a number of different categories. I was going off the your mention of the Honda CR-V. That is in the same category as the Hyundai Tucsan. Hyundai has a slightly larger model, the Sante Fe. But the distinction starts to blur for me. If you want larger, maybe look at his recommendations in the 3 Row Crossover category.

Edit: Though, to clarify, I don't know if any of those models have PHEV/HEV options. Sorry. I haven't been looking at the bigger ones.

TheMix wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 3:56 pm But the distinction starts to blur for me.

Omg yes. A lot of articles don't even make clear distinctions, other than price and AER etc. That's like looking at a 1967 mustang and 2023 corvette based on their 0-60 numbers, and perhaps subjective comments on body style.

Not helpful, dudes.

GreenGoo wrote: Sat Sep 09, 2023 6:12 pm Ok, I'm still in the market, but took a break from researching.

I have to make some concessions to my wife's worries, concerns and requirements, not all of them rational, but it is what it is. I don't drive often and won't be driving the new one often, so the car is really for her, for the family's benefit.

So it looks like I might have to settle for a PHEV. I was worried that I would have to go with just a standard hybrid, but those don't come with government money and there are a few PHEV that seem to work.

I need something mid-SUV sized at a minimum. I might be able to convince her to go with a smaller SUV body, but she is seriously stressed about the lack of space.

I started out looking at the Honda CRV regular hybrid (which felt really nice when I sat in it) but then I realized the Toyota RAV 4 comes in a PHEV flavour. It's a bit too small.

What I need help with is convincing myself that Kia and Hyundai are no longer the quality shitshow they were during their first few years. I realize there are many good reviews out there, but I have a deep seated prejudice against them. Hell, I'm not a fan of North American companies in general, just because. Not overly rational, I know. So if you could help convince me that I'm not stuck with Toyota and/or Honda (they are way behind on EV's, it seems) for mid-range, mid-value, mid-quality, I can expand my research. Otherwise I'll probably end up with a RAV 4 or even Sienna.

I am not enjoying myself, I'm too old and the EV tech is too different that I am struggling to get any level of confidence in terms of buying decisions.

We might end up having this conversation yet again in a few months.

Oh, can you still get deals at the end of the year when the new year models come out? When does that usually happen? Fall? December?

The last 10 years all of our cars have been Kias. NEver had an issue. But I will tell you, at least in my case, it was hard to get the kia's insured no thanks to the tik tok boys stealing kias. I had one company flat out not cover my telluride even though it's not affected. My forte which is half the cost of the telluride costs more to insure.

So on an insurance standpoing, make sure your insurance will cover it.

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 3:48 pm it's going to take all my willpower to pull the trigger on a Kia or Hyundai. I've been prejudiced against them for decades, starting in the late 80's (for Hyundai anyway). My prejudices seem to be misplaced in 2023. That's good. Now to convince myself it's true.

I realize this is like judging today's Nissans based on impressions of Datsuns in the 70's. I can't help it. It's deep seated prejudice.

Has anyone recommended Youtube vids for any final contenders? I find them most helpful.

Man named Jed found a big ol' deposit of bubbling lithium right here in the good ol' USA.

https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/lit ... 32.article

stessier wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 5:25 pm Has anyone recommended Youtube vids for any final contenders? I find them most helpful.

Good idea. I like Autogefuhl, Alex on Autos, Out of Spec Reviews, sometimes Carwow, Doug Demuro…

For GG:
https://twitter.com/itskyleconner/statu ... 27392?s=46

Seems like a long distance to go just to charge.

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:46 pm Seems like a long distance to go just to charge.

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 6:46 pm Seems like a long distance to go just to charge.

Wait times for the Kia Sorento and Hyundai Tuscon are pushing 6 months. Ugh. Maybe longer, depending on how things have changed since the summer article I read.

I'm guessing that it's full sticker price these days. No discount on last year's model? No haggling, presumably. You want a car enough that you will wait 1/2 a year or longer for it? Ok, but it's going to cost you.

Sigh.

Well, at least I like the Tuscon's angular body style. That's a plus.

Boom! Hot link!

*Tucson

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 4:22 pm

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 3:48 pm it's going to take all my willpower to pull the trigger on a Kia or Hyundai. I've been prejudiced against them for decades, starting in the late 80's (for Hyundai anyway). My prejudices seem to be misplaced in 2023. That's good. Now to convince myself it's true.

I realize this is like judging today's Nissans based on impressions of Datsuns in the 70's. I can't help it. It's deep seated prejudice.

But it so happens to be fair in this case.

Nissan/Infiniti is probably the worst Japanese auto brand. The average Kia is far more reliable than the average Nissan/Infinity.

I've been looking lately as well. We've have been trying to get my wife a Sportage for awhile now. The PHEV version of it comes in at volumes of 2-3/month and sells the same day. I'll say my experience with KIA dealerships has been rocky. We went to 4 and at 2 we were flat out ignored. I've never had that happen ever. No person at the desk. No salesman approached. At one, I went to the service counter and they called someone but no one ever helped us. It's weird times.

malchior wrote: Tue Sep 12, 2023 5:25 pm
Nissan/Infiniti is probably the worst Japanese auto brand. The average Kia is far more reliable than the average Nissan/Infinity.

Perhaps today, but they had come a long way since the crap of the 70's, and were a close 3rd of the japanese makers at one point.

I'm not saying I'm fan, just that I remember when they sucked and I remember when they didn't. I'm trying to wrap my head around the idea that the Hyundai brand is not synonymous with poor quality and discount brand.

I'm getting there. Making headway.

malchior wrote: Tue Sep 12, 2023 5:25 pm No person at the desk. No salesman approached. At one, I went to the service counter and they called someone but no one ever helped us. It's weird times.

Even the Honda dealership was quiet. Now I did not dress for it, but still, my wife and I are clearly middle aged and have a honda in the dealer's shop. Surely we should have been worth a try from the sales staff. But nope.

I'm looking harder at the Kia Sorento. Seating for 6 and still qualifies for government rebate as a PHEV. Exterior looks ok, interior...less impressive. I'll have to sit in one to have a valid opinion though.

Full trim is within our budget, so if we don't need everything we can save some money. In the Odyssey the back split bench folded down for extra cargo space. Looks like you have to remove the seats from the car in the Sorento. I'm going to miss that feature.

Just getting started on reading.

Your wife's not gonna go for a full-on EV under any circumstances?

PHEV is definitely better than ICE right now, but you are essentially talking about buying a flip phone in 2009. Which could be fine!

Zaxxon wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 9:38 am Your wife's not gonna go for a full-on EV under any circumstances?

PHEV is definitely better than ICE right now, but you are essentially talking about buying a flip phone in 2009. Which could be fine!

No, probably not, but I'm not pushing hard for it. The full EV's are a bit too small, or too expensive for larger models.

I appreciate your warning, and I mostly agree with it.

I do understand what I'm getting myself into, I think, and I have no intention of trying to keep this new car for 2 decades, even if it were possible. Honestly if I can get through the next 4 years, I'll have considered it a success. I will re-evaluate then.

None of this is final though. I'm still researching.

My one environmental plea - have you considered a used car if you're not going full BEV? You might not be keeping a new ICE for 20 years, but it will be somewhere for that long which is counterproductive. [/soapbox]

A used PHEV? Selection isn't great around here, but I will look again. Keep in mind that I would want a specific model, and used EV/PHEV/whatever are rare enough, finding the one I want is going take a miracle. Then it would have to be attractive in terms of price, and km, etc.

I understand your concern and will look into it.

stessier wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 10:58 am My one environmental plea - have you considered a used car if you're not going full BEV? You might not be keeping a new ICE for 20 years, but it will be somewhere for that long which is counterproductive. [/soapbox]

I wasn't going to get on the soapbox, but I'm here if there's room. I can't imagine buying a new vehicle with an ICE in it in 2023, but I recognize that I am far from the mainstream opinion on this. While a PHEV, properly used to maximize its electric range, is better than a gas guzzler, PHEVs in the general sense are not used this way and over the lifetime of the vehicle it may have higher emissions than a comparable ICE. They also have additional possible maintenance complications because you have all the baggage of an ICE, plus the electric powertrain. (In other words, if you buy it and own it for 5 years, then the next person plugs it in once/year, that's a net loss for the environment.)

I'm not against them in general (I owned one and loved it!). I would just think long and hard before buying one now. In 2016 when I got mine the BEV landscape was far different.

All fair points. I'm doing the best I can given my current family needs and wife. I know the smaller crossovers have seating for 5, but it would be almost impossible to wedge my daughter between my two sons in the back. I mean, I'll still do it if I can't find something bigger that I'm willing to buy, but I'm going to hear about it for the life of the car (or possession anyway).

If it helps, we drive less than 10,000km a year. Often under 8,000 km. And 95% of that is city driving. We are an excellent candidate for EV, but I have to live with these people and my wife is too scared of new things to shock her with too much change at once. She would adamantly refuse that being true, but it is. In the same breath she'd also humm and hah about the EV I suggest because not entirely rational reasons that she insists are valid. I've lived with her for decades.

Lastly, it's *difficult* to buy any vehicle with electric anything right now. Some places you aren't getting the car until next year (like, 12+ months next year) no matter how much money you have to throw at it.

Meanwhile, I can drive off with a non-E hybrid today if I went that way. Not to mention ICE vehicles (not just because no one wants them).

I can wait a little, especially if I'm excited about what I'm getting for what I'm spending, but I can't wait until 2025 if I make a decision today.

Now supply seems to be stabilizing, but I won't be surprised to hear from Hyundai that if I order one of their more popular models, it won't arrive until next summer.

You'll have to explain how a hybrid is going to have higher emissions than an ICE vehicle. That's not intuitively obvious to me.

Yes, I've considered and am suitably terrified by the PHEV complexity and possible maintenance issues. On the plus side Kia/Hyundai have quite extensive warranties, apparently. Still...terrifying, particularly since I have zero experience with anything electric.

EVs are just not where I need them to be yet. Not without a lot of painfully forcing things they aren't used to and don't want. I'm already going to be forcing mild discomfort on them. I'd be willing to go as far as annoying, but that's probably it.

Thanks for all the comments, I am very interested in everyone's opinion. Everything is new and valuable information for me.

GreenGoo wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 11:30 am All fair points. I'm doing the best I can given my current family needs and wife. I know the smaller crossovers have seating for 5, but it would be almost impossible to wedge my daughter between my two sons in the back. I mean, I'll still do it if I can't find something bigger that I'm willing to buy, but I'm going to hear about it for the life of the car (or possession anyway).

To be clear, I'm not trying to guilt or shame you into an EV. I'm just not entirely following the issues.

If it helps, we drive less than 10,000km a year. Often under 8,000 km. And 95% of that is city driving. We are an excellent candidate for EV, but I have to live with these people and my wife is too scared of new things to shock her with too much change at once. She would adamantly refuse that being true, but it is. In the same breath she'd also humm and hah about the EV I suggest because not entirely rational reasons that she insists are valid. I've lived with her for decades.

A PHEV has higher new tech/change risk than a BEV, so I'm a little confused. (Have to plug in every time you come home, either powertrain could have issues, still need to do oil changes et al, need to make sure not to gun it too heavily if you want it to stay in electric mode, etc.) What specifically is she worried about? At < 8-10k km/year, it's not likely range anxiety, assuming you have a garage (and if you don't, then a PHEV wouldn't be that useful, either). A BEV is a car in its simplest possible form, if we're excluding long road trips.

Lastly, it's *difficult* to buy any vehicle with electric anything right now. Some places you aren't getting the car until next year (like, 12+ months next year) no matter how much money you have to throw at it.

So the Y is too small in your estimation?

You'll have to explain how a hybrid is going to have higher emissions than an ICE vehicle. That's not intuitively obvious to me.

I'm specifically talking PHEV, and in the general sense (when not plugged in all the time and therefore using gas most of the time). You're carting around the battery and associated extra drivetrain. You have the production emissions of both the ICE and BEV. Your driving emissions when not plugging in are higher than they would be in the same car without the BEV weight. Your disposal emissions are higher, as well.

If you're going to own the thing for the next 20 years, and can confirm it's going to be driven 90% on electric power for the duration of that time, then it will have lower lifetime emissions. If it gets handed off after 5 years and driven 90% on gas, it's a net negative.

EVs are just not where I need them to be yet. Not without a lot of painfully forcing things they aren't used to and don't want. I'm already going to be forcing mild discomfort on them. I'd be willing to go as far as annoying, but that's probably it.

In what way?

Zaxxon wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 11:43 am

GreenGoo wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 11:30 am You'll have to explain how a hybrid is going to have higher emissions than an ICE vehicle. That's not intuitively obvious to me.

I'm specifically talking PHEV, and in the general sense (when not plugged in all the time and therefore using gas most of the time). You're carting around the battery and associated extra drivetrain. You have the production emissions of both the ICE and BEV. Your driving emissions when not plugging in are higher than they would be in the same car without the BEV weight. Your disposal emissions are higher, as well.

An uncharged PHEV still runs as a traditional hybrid. Not sure if that's enough to offset the additional weight of the electric motor, but it's not like you've gone completely old school ICE in that situation.

ImLawBoy wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 11:57 am

Zaxxon wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 11:43 am

GreenGoo wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 11:30 am You'll have to explain how a hybrid is going to have higher emissions than an ICE vehicle. That's not intuitively obvious to me.

I'm specifically talking PHEV, and in the general sense (when not plugged in all the time and therefore using gas most of the time). You're carting around the battery and associated extra drivetrain. You have the production emissions of both the ICE and BEV. Your driving emissions when not plugging in are higher than they would be in the same car without the BEV weight. Your disposal emissions are higher, as well.

An uncharged PHEV still runs as a traditional hybrid. Not sure if that's enough to offset the additional weight of the electric motor, but it's not like you've gone completely old school ICE in that situation.

It's not enough to offset the additional weight/production/disposal emissions. PHEVs have to be used consistently as PHEVs to come out ahead.

And again, I'm not trying to talk GG out of it--it just seems to me that ideally he'd like a BEV but sees issues with that option and is compromising. So I'm trying to see how those issues comport with my experience. Which GG is absolutely free to ignore entirely.

Zaxxon wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 11:43 am
To be clear, I'm not trying to guilt or shame you into an EV. I'm just not entirely following the issues.

All good. I'll try to answer your questions.

Zaxxon wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 11:43 am A PHEV has higher new tech/change risk than a BEV, so I'm a little confused. (Have to plug in every time you come home, either powertrain could have issues, still need to do oil changes et al, need to make sure not to gun it too heavily if you want it to stay in electric mode, etc.)

But not for her. She can get in it, drive it, fill it with gas, get oil changes (I mostly do this) etc. For her everything is either invisible or the same in PHEV. She will drive as she has always driven and the rest will take care of itself. She may enter ICE more often than she would like if we were discussing numbers, but driving? She won't care as long as the car does what she tells it to do. If she drives a little too fast on occasion, she won't even notice, or if she does, she won't care. She really doesn't care about EV technology. She would be ecstatic if I bought a non-pluggable hybrid. First, because it's a Honda, and we love Honda, but a very distant second, because she would think it's a hybrid so obviously she's helping the environment. She is not a details person and definitely not a tech details person. "hybrid = good enough". Hell, PHEV is almost too much for her. I did say that her objections are not completely rational in my earlier post.

Zaxxon wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 11:43 am What specifically is she worried about? At < 8-10k km/year, it's not likely range anxiety, assuming you have a garage (and if you don't, then a PHEV wouldn't be that useful, either). A BEV is a car in its simplest possible form, if we're excluding long road trips.

Change. I can't emphasize this enough. Those aren't the reasons she gives, but it's the source. Ok, hang on a second, let me ask her directly. I'll come back with the answers I receive as given. Actually, let me save that for a new post. But to be clear, my wife is not making decisions based on the mechanics of it. All cars are a black box to her. Or near enough. You would think this would be an argument for change because she won't understand what's under the hood anyway, but no.

Yes, range is a factor, and quite frankly I agree it's a concern (not a roadblock, necessarily). While it's true that we almost never drive for long periods of time, we CAN if we want to. And we have, on occasion. Having to worry about a shorter range and making it to a charger is a real problem, especially in Canada where population density is less and infrastructure isn't in place yet.

Zaxxon wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 11:43 am So the Y is too small in your estimation?

I'm trying to stay away from Tesla. So I haven't really looked at them. I realize they are almost in a league by themselves, but everyone else isn't so far behind as for it to be a problem for me. Chances are, yes, it's going to be too small, because ALL EV's are too small, on average. This isn't the EV's fault, this is part of making EV's viable. I will take a look at the Y. Just took a quick look. That is the smallest looking mid-sized SUV I've ever seen. Of course this is visual impression, but I haven't looked at the numbers, and somehow they've managed to wedge a 3rd row in there, which seems almost impossible when looking at the exterior. I will look closer soon, but I am resistant, because Tesla.

Zaxxon wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 11:43 am I'm specifically talking PHEV, and in the general sense (when not plugged in all the time and therefore using gas most of the time). You're carting around the battery and associated extra drivetrain. You have the production emissions of both the ICE and BEV. Your driving emissions when not plugging in are higher than they would be in the same car without the BEV weight. Your disposal emissions are higher, as well.

If you're going to own the thing for the next 20 years, and can confirm it's going to be driven 90% on electric power for the duration of that time, then it will have lower lifetime emissions. If it gets handed off after 5 years and driven 90% on gas, it's a net negative.

Perhaps, but most EV's are smaller than a typical family car (what is called typical changes, and is changing, I understand. But our lifetime of typical doesn't match the changes currently) and often weigh less. I think we need to be comparing PHEVs vs ICE, as I think it should be obvious that a PHEV is going to have more emissions than an EV, no matter how carefully it's driven.

I still don't understand how driving a PHEV for 5 years on mostly electric then ICE til end of life is worse than just ICE, and I don't think you're going to be able to convince me. Yes, I understand that driving a PHEV as ICE only is a problem, but we got 4-5 years of cleanish driving first.

On the plus side, as long as we plug it in every night, my wife's usage isn't likely to enter ICE much, I think. That said, what's the cross over speed? Around 60 km/hr? Because our regular streets are often 50-60km/hr. It's very easy to drive over that. And then our highways (even in the city) hit 100km/hr easily, and often faster.

We don't have a garage or a carport, but we do have an regular outlet on that side of the exterior. With a PHEV I don't have to get any electrical work done. It's certainly not a primary consideration, but it's a small perk. If you're saying that regular weather prevents any charging or risks damage, then yeah, I guess I'm out of the EV market after all. My earliest research showed that it wasn't ideal but not a roadblock. Hah. With the price of real estate, requiring a separate house for your car before you can buy an EV prices a LOT of people out of the market. I realize that's not what you're saying. Or at least I hope not.

Zaxxon wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 11:43 am In what way?

In many ways. Size. Variety of makes and models and colours. Price. Availability.

I get that if you're looking specifically for an EV and that's the only thing that outweighs all other considerations, you can find one. You can even find great one. But most people are looking for a car first and an EV second. Or a significant number of the market are doing this anyway. Maybe not most, but probably.

And most manufacturers aren't fully invested yet. BMW, Toyota, Audi, Honda, Volvo etc etc. Yes they all have offerings, mostly, but many are just dipping their toe in right now, so they can point and say "see? We offer EV's too!".

But we're pretty far astride at this point. I seriously doubt we're going to see eye to eye on this, because we may value different aspects of a car differently, or we both see all the variety of EV's available and subjectively I think it's limited while you feel it's incredibly diverse. None of this actually matters as far as me buying my next car. I've told my wife that we're getting a PHEV at a minimum, or no car at all, and that made some waves in my marriage. That's ok, I'll ride them out and it helps that PHEVs qualify for government grants up here (I think I saw that they don't in the US?).

In any case, I'll look at the Y more closely and other mid-sized too. I'm not even remotely close to a decision yet, but I am closer than when I first posted in this thread. Let me ask those questions to my wife...

GreenGoo wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 12:45 pm That said, what's the cross over speed? Around 60 km/hr? Because our regular streets are often 50-60km/hr. It's very easy to drive over that. And then our highways (even in the city) hit 100km/hr easily, and often faster.

I can hit 70mph without triggering the ICE. The battery goes much more quickly at high speed, though.

GreenGoo wrote:

GreenGoo wrote: Mon Sep 11, 2023 3:48 pm it's going to take all my willpower to pull the trigger on a Kia or Hyundai. I've been prejudiced against them for decades, starting in the late 80's (for Hyundai anyway). My prejudices seem to be misplaced in 2023. That's good. Now to convince myself it's true.

I realize this is like judging today's Nissans based on impressions of Datsuns in the 70's. I can't help it. It's deep seated prejudice.

The other factor which might sway you is how Korean cars got good.

"One of the most famous examples, detailed in the book How Asia Works, was how Korean companies hired retired Japanese engineers to move to Korea and teach companies like Hyundai and Samsung how to make cars and electronics. Japanese companies, which traditionally give out promotions and raises based only on seniority, used to force workers into retirement at 60 to avoid having them become too much of a financial and managerial burden; this left them with a number of good working years left and nothing much to do. Korea took advantage, and soon Korean companies were outcompeting their Japanese counterparts."

From this post

https://www.noahpinion.blog/p/biden-dec ... war-on-the

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